Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ Sustainable Hourly Rate??

[insomni AK]

For those of you who play limit, its easy to determine your hourly rate goals. If you play a 10/20 holdem game, your rate is going to be somewhere around $20/hr if you are a solid winning player. Generally the goal is one big bet an hour, and if you are far superior to your opponents, this may increase a bit.

My real question is for NL players, as I have left limit behind some months ago. The swings of limit are just a little too much for me.

NL holdem is of course a game that can cause huge swings in a players roll. You might have a great night at 1/2 and make $1000, $500, etc. and feel pretty good about yourself. Your hourly rate for a session might be a few hundred an hour, but of course this isnt realistic as a long term expectation, as you can lose just as much if you have a bad night.

So, my question for all of you who love to keep record (very important) is, what is your hourly overall rate in NL. What would you say is sustainable for a player who is above average for his level of competition. Since returning to online poker, I started off my first day with a $70/hr rate, which then shrunk to $20/hr during my rough streak, and now has returned to about $40/hr. I am playing only 1/2 and 2/4 NL holdem.

Any articles you could point me to would be great, although it would be nice to hear how you all are doing. Thanks

[knet_poker]

The standard rate for 1/2 and below online is 10 Big Blinds every 100 hands. Since live play is easier you could probably do better. Do the math on about how many hands you play an hour and that should be a good goal. Its the same as one buy-in every 1000 hands.

[insomni AK]

The standard rate for 1/2 and below online is 10 Big Blinds every 100 hands.  Since live play is easier you could probably do better.  Do the math on about how many hands you play an hour and that should be a good goal.  Its the same as one buy-in every 1000 hands.

thats interesting. where did you find this info? Id say online I probably get 60 hands an hour at a 9-handed fulltilt game. Live, I used to get maybe 30 hands an hour, but that was before they started using automatic card shufflers.

So by your numbers, i should be making 6BB every hour, or $12/hr. I guess thats not too bad, although Im sure a more dominant player can make more than this. Also, taking into account that I dont pay taxes on what I win in live games, thats a pretty decent intake for my hobby. Online its a whole different game for me, and I have so many other expenses to calculate when going to a casino. Tips in live games are probably a big leak for me, because I love to make everyone feel good at the tables, and I like people to have a good time even if their giving me their money. The dealers get a lot of love from me and everywhere I go I have a really good reputation with the people that work there. Unfortunately, that doesnt do very much for me when Im trying to build a bankroll. Id say in a typical 8 hour session at the Taj. I give away about $30-40 in tips a night, while making about $400 after the wins and losses. As you can see, this represents a big amount of my income, but it gives me a looser image which can help.

As I write this, Ive just made $400 in the last hour, playing 2/4. 2 big pots and you can go up huge in this game, and one big loss and you can be right back where you started. Its difficult to know when Ive actually reached the "long term" in poker, because when Im down Im really wondering If Im any good at this game.

[knet_poker]

So u r only playing one table at a time? I suppose u could do a little better that way. The rate I told you is called 5ptBB/100 (pokertracker) and that is well ahead of the curve at high stakes NL, I suppose you MIGHT be able to do double that at 1/2NL or below maybe 1.5x that at 2/4 and 3/6.

Long term results are going to need 50K hands minimum and the standard deviation is HUGE per 100 hands.

I'd personally reccomend playing 1/2 and trying to add more tables as you feel comfortable (I'm 10 tabling as I make this post )

[Pocket_88]

(I'm 10 tabling as I make this post )

That's so sick. And if I noticed that, I would give you very little action. How do you do it...? Wow. Do you find yourself playing a little robotic, knet, or is it no big deal for you.

[knet_poker]

That's so sick. And if I noticed that, I would give you very little action. How do you do it...? Wow. Do you find yourself playing a little robotic, knet, or is it no big deal for you.

slightly robotic, but i mix it up vs the regulars.

It helps to have 2 monitors too.

Its annoying when I play someone HU at a table (that goes a little too fast).

Sometimes I forget the action pre-flop but thats very rare (usually I wind up just folding if its marginal).

I always play a 24/18 style at 6 max (today im up 11 buy ins )

the most important thing for me is to pay attention to the meta-game relationship I have with my opponents.

[Pocket_88]

(usually I wind up just folding if its marginal).

And that alone has to put you at an advantage (even if it's a small one) over the field, I would think.

You're also playing HU when you're multi tabling? Again, so sick.

Nice win today.

[knet_poker]

And that alone has to put you at an advantage (even if it's a small one) over the field, I would think.

You're also playing HU when you're multi tabling? Again, so sick.

Nice win today.

I don't play HU much, but tables at 6 max break sometimes, and every once in awhile I get HU vs a really bad player.

Session is still going though, hopefully I can win a few more buyins b4 I call it a night.

[insomni AK]

ok this is absolutely sick. 10 tables?? Ok Ive got a ton of questions for you now.

When I was playing full time it was at most 5 tables, (4 cash and a tournament). I have 2 monitors at the moment, but Im scared to play too many tables because Im on a wireless connection and dont want to freeze up my bandwidth.

Do you have all the tables overlapping eachother?
How can you fit this all on two screens?
What kind of session lengths are you talking about?
As far as bankroll goes, what limits are you playing and what kind of bankroll cushion do you have?
Finally, how in the world can you pay attention effectively at 10 tables?? Do you just play ultra conservative ABC for the most part? How can you concentrate on other hands when youre in a huge multiway pot with a huge hand?

I know its a lot of questions but I just cant believe someone can play effectively at any more than 4 or 5 tables. Maybe youre just tighter than I am, but I often had 2 big hands simultaneously and it was important for me to be completely focused in just those 2.

[wlgolfpro]

ok this is absolutely sick. 10 tables?? Ok Ive got a ton of questions for you now.

When I was playing full time it was at most 5 tables, (4 cash and a tournament). I have 2 monitors at the moment, but Im scared to play too many tables because Im on a wireless connection and dont want to freeze up my bandwidth.

Do you have all the tables overlapping eachother?
How can you fit this all on two screens?
What kind of session lengths are you talking about?
As far as bankroll goes, what limits are you playing and what kind of bankroll cushion do you have?
Finally, how in the world can you pay attention effectively at 10 tables?? Do you just play ultra conservative ABC for the most part? How can you concentrate on other hands when youre in a huge multiway pot with a huge hand?

I know its a lot of questions but I just cant believe someone can play effectively at any more than 4 or 5 tables. Maybe youre just tighter than I am, but I often had 2 big hands simultaneously and it was important for me to be completely focused in just those 2.

I cant answer all the questions but, for the most part, he is just a freak. He sustains unsustainable gains. Definition of an online pro, IMO. Either that or he is just FOS. And if that is true, then, he is one helluva bull######ter.

[Sweeney]

I have a sort of 'summer challenge' with my friends to see who can turn their bankroll into the most over the course of the summer.
I have been playing 5 tables of 0.5/1 NLH full ring for about 1/2 hours a day and my target is $100 a day. So far this has generally worked. I think my hourly average is about $60 and I have a few bonuses and rakback due so I dont know if this adds to you numbers as well

That said however, when I used to play 1/2 my profits went up but not by much and when I play 2/4 they are about the same as 0.5/1 but obviously thats varience more than real profit.

[knet_poker]

ok this is absolutely sick. 10 tables?? Ok Ive got a ton of questions for you now.

When I was playing full time it was at most 5 tables, (4 cash and a tournament). I have 2 monitors at the moment, but Im scared to play too many tables because Im on a wireless connection and dont want to freeze up my bandwidth.

I generally do 6-8 ring and 2-4 tournaments at once (so anywhere from 8-12 tables at a time), I have recently decided to just play 10 ring tables and no tournaments for the time being. Tournaments keep me up later on weeknights when I have to work in the morning.

Do you have all the tables overlapping eachother?
How can you fit this all on two screens?

I have zero overlap, on my laptop I can actually 9 table with zero overlap (same as my 2nd monitor). You can resize the tables on pokerstars, I have a custom layout set so that I have 4 tables on my 17'' laptop and 6 on my 20'' monitor, it still leaves a little room at the bottom on my monitor to talk on aim. Every once in awhile I'll open up a webpage or pokertracker and that obv gets in the way but the tables pop up over it when I need to act there.

What kind of session lengths are you talking about?
As far as bankroll goes, what limits are you playing and what kind of bankroll cushion do you have?

Generally around 4-5 hrs or so. (I have pulled an 18 hr session once bc I wanted to play 10K hands in a day) At the moment I play 1/2 and have a 50ish buy-in BR. A ton is offline, but I don't know how to deposit anymore so I have to work with what I have.

Finally, how in the world can you pay attention effectively at 10 tables?? Do you just play ultra conservative ABC for the most part? How can you concentrate on other hands when youre in a huge multiway pot with a huge hand?

Well I have all 10 tables in my vision at once so I can always see what is going on at each table. I play fairly ABC TAG, 24% hands played at 6 max and I raise 18% (so 3/4 raise 1/4 call pre-flop), my aggression factor is 2.5ish (so I raise/bet 2.5x more often than I call). For the most part I don't play many multiway pots, but when I do get a huge hand I just make sure my time bank isn't going while I check the other tables. Usually while I do what I have to do at the other tables I'm thinking about how to act at the table where I have a big hand. At 1/2 there prolly isn't anything I haven't seen so most of the decisions are 2nd nature. I have to admit I do time-out and miss a hand on occasion, but that's rare.

I know its a lot of questions but I just cant believe someone can play effectively at any more than 4 or 5 tables. Maybe youre just tighter than I am, but I often had 2 big hands simultaneously and it was important for me to be completely focused in just those 2.

I would say I play fairly loose, 24% of hands played is a little on the high side for TAG requirements, I have grown use to it and I'm young, 10 tables isn't that crazy to me. Last night I played around 3600 hands and made $1950 (peaked around 2400), this is about 4x higher than my lifetime win-rate at 1/2 (4ptBB), but only about 2x higher than what I have ran at since I started playing hard again (about 22-24 sessions and 50K hands).

Also one thing I forgot to mention is that I see the same names a lot so I start to get some notes/reads on certatin players and if I see a name I don't recognize I usually just assume they are a donk (and I'm usually right).

[knet_poker]

I cant answer all the questions but, for the most part, he is just a freak.  He sustains unsustainable  gains.  Definition of an online pro, IMO.  Either that or he is just FOS.  And if that is true, then, he is one helluva bull######ter.

I don't sustain unsustainable gains. Since I got pokertracker I am a 5ptBB/100 winner for the limits that I played full-time (.5/1, 1/2, and 5/10). 5ptBB/100 is a good solid goal/win-rate, but there are definitely people doing better than that at 1/2 and below. I think I'm getting pretty close to 200K hands logged on pokertracker now, that's probably enough to override variance.

[ChekAtkins]

Just the thought of 10 tabling gives me carpal tunnel. I 3 or 4 tabled a couple of years ago and got carpal tunnel (or a variation of it...lots of pain due to repetitive motion) and once you get it it's a ###### to get rid of. I don't really have it right now...at least not badly...but I'm still 'tender' and I can feel that it would return in no time. So my max now is 2 tables and even then I can't play that long. I have to use a trackball or it would come right back.

If I didn't love playing guitar so much it probably wouldn't bother me as much. Weird...I practiced guitar for hours on end for years and never got much 'repetitve motion' pain/injuries but a couple months of just 4-tabling did it (or maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back?).

I hate meces to pieces.

[knet_poker]

Just the thought of 10 tabling gives me carpal tunnel.  I 3 or 4 tabled a couple of years ago and got carpal tunnel (or a variation of it...lots of pain due to repetitive motion) and once you get it it's a ###### to get rid of.  I don't really have it right now...at least not badly...but I'm still 'tender' and I can feel that it would return in no time.  So my max now is 2 tables and even then I can't play that long.  I have to use a trackball or it would come right back.

If I didn't love playing guitar so much it probably wouldn't bother me as much.  Weird...I practiced guitar for hours on end for years and never got much 'repetitve motion' pain/injuries but a couple months of just 4-tabling did it (or maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back?).

I hate meces to pieces.

I have a bit of this problem, but I have a nice logitech mouse which shapes to my hand and a mouse pad + wrist foam pad combo that helps. As long as I keep good posture with my back my wrist tends to be fine.

[insomni AK]

well, i guess im still gaining enough confidence in my long term cash game play to move beyond 2 tables. Most of my poker winnings to date have come from higher stakes SNG games ($550 buyins being the highest I have played), and I never ever played more than 2 tables when I played that high. It payed for a car and a some college, so I mustve been doing something right. That feels like a long time ago tho.

Im also restarting my bankroll from scratch, since Im not planning on touching my savings. I've really taken a hard look at my game, live and online, and I know Im nowhere near as good as I once thought I was. I lost most of my bankroll when I took a shot at 10/20 NL at a live game, and lets just say the cards werent kind to me that day, and I was also playing scared. I was 19 at the time and a little cocky.

I work a full-time job now,which sucks, but it keeps me active and social (somewhat), and i play about 30 hours of poker a week. I know for sure that since leaving poker and returning to a regular job, the game has become much much easier and less pressure packed, and thus more enjoyable. Its nice to know that even if I go broke (unlikely), I will still have my rent money.

Could you explain what 5ptBB/100 means? Particularly what pt is? This is probably common knowledge of but Ive lost touch with the lingo since leaving online play.

Thanks for all the input.

[KJo]

I'm a giant ###### because I won't play more than 2 tables. But then again, I actually want to pay attention and enjoy the game, so there's that.

Eli

[knet_poker]

I'm a giant ###### because I won't play more than 2 tables.  But then again, I actually want to pay attention and enjoy the game, so there's that.

Eli

That's called playing Live.

[knet_poker]

I work a full-time job now,which sucks, but it keeps me active and social (somewhat), and i play about 30 hours of poker a week. I know for sure that since leaving poker and returning to a regular job, the game has become much much easier and less pressure packed, and thus more enjoyable. Its nice to know that even if I go broke (unlikely), I will still have my rent money.

Could you explain what 5ptBB/100 means? Particularly what pt is? This is probably common knowledge of but Ive lost touch with the lingo since leaving online play.

Thanks for all the input.

Working full time and playing poker 30 hrs a week is draining as hell, I know, I do the same every other 3 months (about 4 weeks into this marathon). Staring at a computer for that many hours kills me....etc

ptBB/100 is a pokertracker term

pt=profit

BB= Big Bet, so for NL one BB = 2 big blinds (it was based off of limit so its a little awkward for NL players but everyone gets used to it bc its so popular and everyone uses it etc)

100 is the number of hands

so 5ptBB/100 at 1/2NL = win rate of $10 every 100 hands

The terminology really isn't that important but that is the common way in the online poker world to discuss win-rates.

[ganstaman]

Working full time and playing poker 30 hrs a week is draining as hell, I know, I do the same every other 3 months (about 4 weeks into this marathon).  Staring at a computer for that many hours kills me....etc

ptBB/100 is a pokertracker term

pt=profit

BB= Big Bet, so for NL one BB = 2 big blinds (it was based off of limit so its a little awkward for NL players but everyone gets used to it bc its so popular and everyone uses it etc)

100 is the number of hands

so 5ptBB/100 at 1/2NL = win rate of $10 every 100 hands

The terminology really isn't that important but that is the common way in the online poker world to discuss win-rates.

Wait, isn't 5ptBB/100 a profit of 5 big bets, which is 5 times 2 times the big blind, with is $20 per 100 hands?