Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ An Online trend I'm noticing

[Ace-Freeley]

Poor river play. I've noticed lately how many players have decided before the river card whether to bet (they usually do) when they've been betting every street. I've been watching some high limit games 75-150; 15-30 games etc lately and the mindless aggression is unreal..but I see it a lot at 3-6 also.

I've seen the aggression level really go up in online poker and its really an interesting trend. But so few players ever check to induce a bluff. And almost nobody out there is considering the fact that an opponent may not call with a worse hand. Its just bet, bet, bet. Its almost getting to the point where if you fold a couple tough spots you can become a target for many players who will simply try to run you over.

Dam I wish I wasn't so high on percocet right now and I could explain my thoughts better. I'll try again tomorrow.

[dingosstolemybankroll]

All sycophants of the type of strategy espoused by Phil Gordon in his Little Green Guide to "Raising, Re-raising, and never Folding" ...and others books of the same ilk. We're entering an evolutionary phase in low/mid limit HE of the "non-foldable" hand once you see a flop.

An absurd and unrealisitc question: When will we see a "1x pre-flop, 2x flop, 3x turn/river" game? Would it help low/mid-limit by creating a niche?

A $3/$6/$12 or $5/$10/$15 game? Imagine an $18 or $30 re-raise on the flop after a $3 or $5 admission! Guess that would just force the fish to learn to calculate pot odds. Kinda' like Tiger-proofing golf courses has caused equipment manufacturerers to sell $1,000 drivers to golf hacks.

Poor river play.  I've noticed lately how many players have decided before the river card whether to bet (they usually do) when they've been betting every street.  I've been watching some high limit games 75-150; 15-30 games etc lately and the mindless aggression is unreal..but I see it a lot at 3-6 also. 

I've seen the aggression level really go up in online poker and its really an interesting trend.  But so few players ever check to induce a bluff.  And almost nobody out there is considering the fact that an opponent may not call with a worse hand.  Its just bet, bet, bet.  Its almost getting to the point where if you fold a couple tough spots you can become a target for many players who will simply try to run you over. 

Dam I wish I wasn't so high on percocet right now and I could explain my thoughts better.  I'll try again tomorrow.

[Derf]

Ace:

Dam I wish I wasn't so high on percocet right now and I could explain my thoughts better. I'll try again tomorrow.

I await your thoughts, b/c I think this is an interesting topic. Not river aggression only, but overall aggression. 2.5 years ago I would consider 12/5 type player solid (full ring). Now I would consider him a fairly passive rock who probably gets rolled at most limits online.

--Fred

[beigs]

Poor river play.  I've noticed lately how many players have decided before the river card whether to bet (they usually do) when they've been betting every street.  I've been watching some high limit games 75-150; 15-30 games etc lately and the mindless aggression is unreal..but I see it a lot at 3-6 also. 

I've seen the aggression level really go up in online poker and its really an interesting trend.  But so few players ever check to induce a bluff.  And almost nobody out there is considering the fact that an opponent may not call with a worse hand.  Its just bet, bet, bet.  Its almost getting to the point where if you fold a couple tough spots you can become a target for many players who will simply try to run you over. 

Dam I wish I wasn't so high on percocet right now and I could explain my thoughts better.  I'll try again tomorrow.

I've noticed this too. And I'm amazed at how often they were bluffing most of the way. I wonder how much all the No Limit exposure influences this pattern. Every book stresses aggression, aggression, aggression and with editing, that's all you see on TV.

[Ace-Freeley]

I think some of it is a younger generation that plays with less patience. I get the feeling 10 years ago limit hold em was a bunch of pros sitting around winning small pots off each other waiting for some tourists to show up and pick them apart. With multitabling and the emergence of shorthanded play, the game has changed dramatically. Patience is no longer stressed as a part of the game.
But I think it should be.

I suppose more important than the reasons for increased aggression across the board is how do our strategies change now that this is the current textures of the game. So far my reaction has been simply to call more. The thought of folding top/pair good kicker in a heads up hand just doesn't happen anymore. Only against a few opponents would I consider folding in that situation.

Somewhere in all the aggression was lost the concept that I've read a couple of times lately: that good winning players are still tight and aggressive. That solid players usually have the goods. That playing solid aggressive poker is the way to make money. I think some people are just bored by the concept of making one BB hour and are looking for every edge imaginable to push to increase that beyond what others are winning.

Just rambling..not sure what to make of all this just yet. Still marinating.

[Matt Berman]

I guess the obvious question is--have you been winning more against said aggression, or finding it more difficult to win?

M@

[wlgolfpro]

[quote=Derf,Mar 14 2006, 03:57 PM]
Ace:
I await your thoughts, b/c I think this is an interesting topic. Not river aggression only, but overall aggression. 2.5 years ago I would consider 12/5 type player solid (full ring). Now I would consider him a fairly passive rock who probably gets rolled at most limits online.

--Fred

[/quote

I understand what you mean by 12/5 in reference to PT, but VP$IP and preflop raise % really have very little to do with aggression. A guy can be 12/5 and be a maniac in the hands he plays, and a guy could be 55/25 and be a total calling station postflop. Can you explain further?

[hokie95]

I think some of it is a younger generation that plays with less patience.  I get the feeling 10 years ago limit hold em was a bunch of pros sitting around winning small pots off each other waiting for some tourists to show up and pick them apart.  With multitabling and the emergence of shorthanded play, the game has changed dramatically.  Patience is no longer stressed as a part of the game.
But I think it should be.

I suppose more important than the reasons for increased aggression across the board is how do our strategies change now that this is the current textures of the game.  So far my reaction has been simply to call more.  The thought of folding top/pair good kicker in a heads up hand just doesn't happen anymore.  Only against a few opponents would I consider folding in that situation. 

Somewhere in all the aggression was lost the concept that I've read a couple of times lately:  that good winning players are still tight and aggressive.  That solid players usually have the goods.  That playing solid aggressive poker is the way to make money.  I think some people are just bored by the concept of making one BB hour and are looking for every edge imaginable to push to increase that beyond what others are winning. 

Just rambling..not sure what to make of all this just yet.  Still marinating.

That's the credo of Miller's SSHE book. Find every edge and exploit it. It has sold a few copies.

[Ace-Freeley]

I guess the obvious question is--have you been winning more against said aggression, or finding it more difficult to win?

M@

Hmmm. Tough to say, I'm a lot better at adjusting now. A lot better in general. So I would say I win more now. Aggressive players are more difficult to play. You are faced with more difficult decisions now. I think poker is in constant evolution. I think the most important thing is to keep your game up to date. You must adapt as the game adapts. Guess that's why I brought up the subject. Curious what others make of the changes going on right now.

[Schuster]

I've been doing a lot more calling postflop the past few months in my limit games as well. It seems like everyone wants to hang themselves, they just need someone to give them the rope. Hand from today. I open raise from CO with KJo, SB 3 bets, BB calls, I call. Flop is K44 rainbow. SB bets, BB folds, I call. Turn is a 7 or something. SB bets, I call. River is a jack. SB bets, I raise, he calls. He has TT. Seriously what does he think I'm calling the flop with there that's worse than TT? Had been at the table with him at least an hour. Oh, and I was planning to raise the river whether it was a jack or not. Just made it easier.

It does make hands harder to read though, and that irks me. I miss the days of seeing pots unraised sometimes. =(

Lee

[rathole]

Seriously what does he think I'm calling the flop with there that's worse than TT? 

Granted, I'm sure I don't play limits as high as Lee, but I see this kind of play a lot and am constantly amazed.

I think sometimes I lay down the best hand because of the aggression. It's tough to get a read on some of these aggressive sorts. If I have a marginal hand, or weak kicker, I may lay it down prematurely against aggression. Sometimes I go into calling station mode, which I'm never real happy about. When you catch them it does feel good, however, to snap one off every now and then when my gut tells me they're full of it.

I also agree that TV plays a role. Newer players don't really understand the difference between NL and Limit. And, they think the select hands they see on WPT et al. are how poker is played. Well, obviously limit ring games play much differently than the final table of a MTT.

I guess normally my response is to tighten up even more and play position, fold when I miss, and hammer away when I hit. I think, overall, I fare better against over-aggressive players because of this.

[ADS]

I've been doing a lot more calling postflop the past few months in my limit games as well.  It seems like everyone wants to hang themselves, they just need someone to give them the rope.  Hand from today.  I open raise from CO with KJo, SB 3 bets, BB calls, I call.  Flop is K44 rainbow.  SB bets, BB folds, I call.  Turn is a 7 or something.  SB bets, I call.  River is a jack.  SB bets, I raise, he calls.  He has TT.  Seriously what does he think I'm calling the flop with there that's worse than TT?  Had been at the table with him at least an hour.  Oh, and I was planning to raise the river whether it was a jack or not.  Just made it easier.

It does make hands harder to read though, and that irks me.  I miss the days of seeing pots unraised sometimes. =(

Lee

Your hand played itself....i find the difficult situations are when you flop middle pair or even bottom pair and end up heads up against one of these automatic bettors..raisers. This is where I sometimes feel lost. I don't think there is a consistent answer here. Just a general statement of the more automatic agression there is from your opponent, the more you have to call down (or raise).

[palman]

Seriously what does he think I'm calling the flop with there that's worse than TT?

If we assumed you were the average party poker player?? Ax, 22+, and some players will call one off with some QJ undercards. I'm not joking. I'm firing on the flop and turn here given your line, and PERHAPS the river against some people. The only thing truly questionable is calling the raise on the river, and heck I might do that for information.

[QKiLL]

If we assumed you were the average party poker player??  Ax, 22+, and some players will call one off with some QJ undercards.  I'm not joking.  I'm firing on the flop and turn here given your line, and PERHAPS the river against some people.  The only thing truly questionable is calling the raise on the river, and heck I might do that for information.

The most difficult area for me here is the "knucklehead" factor ,..... the average PP player[s] you mention will play QJo/Ax the same way I might play AKs/QQ. I don't use PT/GT at the table anymore, but I don't think that helps here, anyway.

You sure look good when you catch these yahoo's firing and firing at pots and losing, but I would almost rather play a "good" player, as some of these guys. And to make it more difficult, you get a run of cold cards ,......
this is my problem area. I KNOW they ain't got ###### - but neither do I ,..... then I'm the guy playing middle pair/mid kicker, and lose as the knobhead out-kicks me ,..... [guess I am the knobhead].

My point was how much info can you get from someone who plays all over the board ,...... ?

[beigs]

I've been doing a lot more calling postflop the past few months in my limit games as well.  It seems like everyone wants to hang themselves, they just need someone to give them the rope.  Hand from today.  I open raise from CO with KJo, SB 3 bets, BB calls, I call.  Flop is K44 rainbow.  SB bets, BB folds, I call.  Turn is a 7 or something.  SB bets, I call.  River is a jack.  SB bets, I raise, he calls.  He has TT.  Seriously what does he think I'm calling the flop with there that's worse than TT?  Had been at the table with him at least an hour.  Oh, and I was planning to raise the river whether it was a jack or not.  Just made it easier.

It does make hands harder to read though, and that irks me.  I miss the days of seeing pots unraised sometimes. =(

Lee

I'm still seeing a lot of pots going unraised but that might only be at the lower limits. THe aggression comes on the turn and river. If you're in EP and raise PF and then continue on the flop. but check the turn, someone always bets. And then they always bet the river too. And they're bluffing so often now just becuase you showed weakness. I've started slowing down on unscary boards just because it's so easy to induce a bluff and get in a checkraise.

[Derf]

I understand what you mean by 12/5 in reference to PT, but VP$IP and preflop raise % really have very little to do with aggression. A guy can be 12/5 and be a maniac in the hands he plays, and a guy could be 55/25 and be a total calling station postflop. Can you explain further?

[/quote]


Yeah, my description wasn't very....descriptive. I actually had had my brother in mind when I posted the above sentiment. He has read a few books, he is very tight and way too passive preflop, and while his postflop aggression numbers are decent, they are so b/c he folds a alot. So basically he plays too few hands, too passively, and a fit or fold style postflop. That was enough for a good winrate 2 years ago.....I don't think that is the case in today's games--for a couple of reasons.

1. He is likely to get steamrolled by better, more aggressive players--both pre and post flop.

2. With stat info being so common now, he just isn't going to get the action on his good hands that he could expect 2 years ago. When some guy with a 13/4 preflop numbers, 2 AF and a Wto SD of 25% and a win$atSD of 64% starts giving it hell, giving him any action is insane! You just step out of the way.

--Fred

[Derf]

Ace:

I think some of it is a younger generation that plays with less patience.    Patience is no longer stressed as a part of the game.
But I think it should be.

What do you mean by patience. Tighter play? Waiting for bigger edges? This kind of comes down to the crux of many of our disagreements, Ace..no?

I think some people are just bored by the concept of making one BB hour and are looking for every edge imaginable to push to increase that beyond what others are winning.

I think it comes down to pushing every edge in order to maintain a decent win rate, not to surpass everyone else's. A good table at the party 5/10 full now consisits of having 2 players in the 30+VPIP range. The average seeing the flop is probably down to around 26,27% overall and the average pfr is 7-8%....a far cry from the days of old. Sure, I can usually find at least one better table each night...and the occassional gold mine, but the average table ain't what it used to be.

--Fred

[HopyMSU]

If we assumed you were the average party poker player??  Ax, 22+, and some players will call one off with some QJ undercards.  I'm not joking.  I'm firing on the flop and turn here given your line, and PERHAPS the river against some people.  The only thing truly questionable is calling the raise on the river, and heck I might do that for information.

But they had played probably 50 hands together...will Lee look 'typical' after 50 hands...would YOU mess with him?

Andy

[blaneMan]

Dear Abby

NL Ring games, Hold em.. low stakes.

I am glad I found this thread because I figure you all play at relatively higher stakes than I do, but I am hearing the same... some players don't give a hoot about pot odds; as much as you hammer raises with pocket Kings in late position, they call, call, call and go to the river and pull out two pairs, like 3's and 5's on the turn and river when the flop shows J-Q-10 rainbow. They answer 4x-5x the BB preflop! With a 3/5o.

I just don't know how to adjust to this type of play, maybe getting out to another table is the answer, but that doesn't help my game in terms of switching gears. I am having trouble with the variance(?) or I just suck at the rings or poker. Are they bad beats and I've got to suck it up? Will the math work its way to my advantage of +EV hands in the long run?

I figure I can't go wrong with TAG, playing position and the willingness to fold when I know I see red flags. I thought I'd find more "reasonable" play at higher stakes, but from this thread it seems like it's across the board.

I know I am just talking pennies and quarters. i would be jumping out windows at your levels.

Signed
Frustrated

[Ace-Freeley]

Ace:
What do you mean by patience.  Tighter play?  Waiting for bigger edges?  This kind of comes down to the crux of many of our disagreements, Ace..no?
I think it comes down to pushing every edge in order to maintain a decent win rate, not to surpass everyone else's.  A good table at the party 5/10 full now consisits of having 2 players in the 30+VPIP range.  The average seeing the flop is probably down to around 26,27% overall and the average pfr is 7-8%....a far cry from the days of old.  Sure, I can usually find at least one better table each night...and the occassional gold mine, but the average table ain't what it used to be. 

--Fred

I find myself agreeing with your posts more and more. Almost all of our disagreements have been of the preflop variety. I consider you one of the best posters on here because it seems like you have a good feel for the game.

I'm curious what time of day you typically play at party that you find the tables so difficult. And if its that difficult to find a good game I would highly recommend come playing the 3-6 where I play. Yeah its a lower limit, but if you hop on the 3-6 tables at night...particularly friday and saturday you will find plenty of idiots...particularly on the 6 max tables. 2bb/100 is easy to maintain on these tables.

By patience I mean it seems to me that if most players are in a cold run of cards, or can't hit a flop they play like they need to make something happen. If they miss 3 flops in a row they can't stand folding 3 flops in a row. I think our experiences are so different though because of the 6 max tables. 6 max is just so much more profitable. 9 handed is fairly boring to me. The 9 handed tables where I play are much tighter and the postflop play is better. 6 max is your best friend, if you can handle the variance.