Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ lots of 6ths, whats wrong?

[Kadin]

Just wondering what normally is the problem w/ someones play that causes them to get out in 6th place alot in SNGs.

I have almost twice as many 6th place finishes than anything else... could it be that i loosen up too early? I have been finding myself at level 4 or 5 with normally about 7 people still in... so i end up having to play some more marginal hands to steal some blinds. It seems like most the time I get called once or twice and then I am short stacked when the blinds get up to 150/300...or even 100/200 sometimes.

In general what should I be looking for in my play that causes me to get out so often in 6th? Should i be playing more hands early so I am not shortstacked when the blinds rise or should i keep playing tight for a while longer and hope to catch a hand when the blinds are high and i don't even have enough to steal?

Just looking for a general answer i guess.

Kadin

[scarface]

Just wondering what normally is the problem w/ someones play that causes them to get out in 6th place alot in SNGs.

I have almost twice as many 6th place finishes than anything else... could it be that i loosen up too early?  I have been finding myself at level 4 or 5 with normally about 7 people still in... so i end up having to play some more marginal hands to steal some blinds.  It seems like most the time I get called once or twice and then I am short stacked when the blinds get up to 150/300...or even 100/200 sometimes.

In general what should I be looking for in my play that causes me to get out so often in 6th?  Should i be playing more hands early so I am not shortstacked when the blinds rise or should i keep playing tight for a while longer and hope to catch a hand when the blinds are high and i don't even have enough to steal?

Just looking for a general answer i guess.

Kadin

What are the buy-in's for the tournies you're playing? Also, what are you trying to steal with? If you are playing 5/10 dollar SNG's, you're probably not going to be able to steal too much. If you are playing these levels, the best strategy is to just wait for a good hand and punish these guys with it, it seems like there is always someone will to call you, so just play straight forward and teach them a lesson. I usually don't start stealing until I am down to about 4 people, that's when I usually feel it's necesary to survive, because the blinds are pretty steep and you're getting hit with them often. I guess, if you are going out in 6th a lot, you are playing too loose, but that's a pretty big assumption on my part because I don't know too much about how you're playing, but from my experience, if you are going out a lot early, too loose, if you are going out in 4th a lot, too tight. Hope that helps some, good luck!!

[Dashel]

If you are playing 5-10 dollar games, then you are definetly playing too many hands too early. At that level you should be able to sit out from the start and get 5th every time, seriously. If you are playing higher limits, where we are assuming the skill is much much higher, I dont know what to say except that you might just be getting out played. The 5-10 dollar sng's are pretty easy pickens for a tight, agressive, decent player. The key is, just be super tight until the blinds hit 50/100 or so, let the fish weed themselves out. Then back to normal play.

[keithb]

I agree with the above two posters. I would say that I tend to do better on the 5/10 SNGs by doing something else at the same time - internet, tv, whatever. If you look at it too closely, you end up playing too many marginal hands because of boredom. The other thing is by playing tight aggressive in these low limit tourneys, you tend to be employing the Joyce Gracie style of poker (i.e., fighting off your back), because you will only have a stack if you get some big cards early. So you will likely be among the short-stacks at the bubble.

As a result, as good as I claim to be at these (51% ITM/38% ROI through 215 SNGs), I am only in the money 51% of the time. My 4th-10th places are well scattered. Don't worry about what place you came in (although many people say that you should be below 8% in 4th as a barometer of whether you should tighten up or not (I'm around 9% for those that give a hoot), I think you should be worried about what hand you lost with. Did your AK get busted when if went all in pre-flop? Did you push with a medium pair and lose? Analyze those losing hands to see where your leak is.

Good luck

[zach jiganti]

  I am only in the money 51% of the time. 

Only?!?! 51% is great!

[Kadin]

okay, so this is nothing new really. I know that i need to be tight aggressive... and i am. I know to be super tight through the beginning and weed out the fish before i start playing hands. Lately though I have been finding myself in games where the fish are not being weeded out. So i can't just sit around, wait until 5 people are left, then open up and start stealing blinds.... because by the time there are 5 people left the blinds are at 100/200 and I have 500 left because the blinds have been eating me. I make one steal attempt and if someone has a hand behind me i am screwed. I realize that you need to get some hands now and then in order to win these things but i feel like there must be something I am doing wrong if the place that I seem to get so much is 6th. I have a 36% ITM and a 17% ROI (because i jumped up to some 20s a lost a few). BTW, these are 10+1's i am talking about.

Anyways, thanks for trying to help but I was more looking for an answer like "you need to start playing more hands when it gets down to 6 people" or "you need to wait for a good hand no matter what when your stack gets so short no one respects your raises" things like that... but ones that make since for getting 6th so much.

Ah well... thanks anyways,
Kadin

[zach jiganti]

okay, so this is nothing new really.  I know that i need to be tight aggressive... and i am.  I know to be super tight through the beginning and weed out the fish before i start playing hands.  Lately though I have been finding myself in games where the fish are not being weeded out.  So i can't just sit around, wait until 5 people are left, then open up and start stealing blinds.... because by the time there are 5 people left the blinds are at 100/200 and I have 500 left because the blinds have been eating me.  I make one steal attempt and if someone has a hand behind me i am screwed.  I realize that you need to get some hands now and then in order to win these things but i feel like there must be something I am doing wrong if the place that I seem to get so much is 6th.  I have a 36% ITM and a 17% ROI (because i jumped up to some 20s a lost a few).  BTW, these are 10+1's i am talking about.

Anyways, thanks for trying to help but I was more looking for an answer like "you need to start playing more hands when it gets down to 6 people" or "you need to wait for a good hand no matter what when your stack gets so short no one respects your raises"  things like that... but ones that make since for getting 6th so much.

Ah well... thanks anyways,
Kadin

If there are still 6 people left with huge blinds, you have a little bit more time to wait for a hand. Still, if the blinds are half your stack, or even a third of your stack, you should probably push with any ace or any pair if the table is tight. Obviously they must be pretty tight if the blinds are so big with 6 left.

Where are you playing? I'm assuming it's partypoker, because their blinds raise every 10 hands which is really fast. Also, I think it's a good idea to use the all-in steal to your advantage. If you have 700 and the blinds are 100/200, you should go all-in on a steal rather than raise it to 400. You would pretty much have to push on the flop regardless of what comes. If you get called on an all in steal, you are usually only a 60/40 dog unless your opponent has an overpair. It's well worth it in my book. Remember who the tight players are, and don't try to steal against the big stacks, or (ironically) the very low stacks who have most of their chips in the blind and will call regardless of their cards. Ex: BB has 150 left with 300 in the BB. He's most likely going to call if you raise because he will be blinded out next hand if he doesn't. Steal medium stack blinds because they can afford to lose the blind, but can't afford to double you up like the big stack(s) can. Good luck!

[keithb]

Kadin,
I think that you need to start playing more hands when it gets down to 6 people, also, you need to wait for a good hand no matter what when your stack gets so short no one respects your raises.

Good luck

[keithb]

Thanks Zach

[HopyMSU]

Kadin,

There are no successful formulae for winning in SNGs...or any other form of poker. Because of that, it is hard to give you the answer that you're looking for. Perhaps a UPFer would be willing to look at a few of the SNG hand histories where you really struggled and faced these issues. Then and only then could someone really give you an answer as to WHAT you're doing wrong and how to improve it.

I'm willing but no expert. I'm sure Palman or Schuster would be much better at diagnosing your issues; however, I'm free .

Andy

[Kadin]

lol, thanks guys... i think i was just going through a tough period of sngs, ive placed in 7 of the last 10 i have played with 4 1st places.

Hopy, i know that there is no formula for ANY poker and I didn't mean to ask what it was if that is what my post seemed like.

I was just a little confused because i know that I need to loosen up as the blinds go up (regaurdless of how tight or loose the game is) and it seemed for awhile there that whenever I loosened up to start stealing blinds I kept going out because I was being loose.... i think most people go out around 4th, 5th and 6th because they are playing too tight. I don't believe this is the case with me because i consciously try to loosen up.

I think my main problem is that I need to pick who i steal from. I do pay attention to stack sized and try not to steal from the big stacks (which sucks sometimes because for awhile there they seemed like they were ALWAYS on my left) and try not to steal from short stacks because they are just waiting to throw the rest of their chips in. I just need to pay attention to who will fold their blinds to a raise.... and hope that someone doesn't pick up a hand behind me.

Sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to find a specific answer to my problem.... i don't seem to be very good at getting my questions across the way i think of them in my head. I'll try to work on that.

Thanks guys,
Kadin

[keithb]

Kadin,

The dry spells hit everybody. I had incredible variance in the last week for example. I got hot early last week and went 13/14 in the money. Over the weekend, I got demolished, 4/17 and all 4 were third places. My week was +$40, but losing $70 in two days is punishing. It doesn't hurt my long-term numbers much, but it goes to show you that you have to keep things in perspective.

I have noticed that my weekend play tends to be a bit worse because I play too many games back to back, and I think as I go further in the day, I end up lowering my starting hand requirements a bit more than I should, like 10 handed, I bet 5 times the big blind with AJ os and such silliness. Then I'm shocked with 4 callers and I don't catch any part of the flop and have to shut it down after I take a stab at it (leaving me with $550-$600 in chips). Its a leak in my game for sure. I think to stop my leak, I'm going to try multi-tabling SNGs again with another site, so that I can be more patient and wait for better cards.

Food for thought, it happens to everybody. If you look at your life as a never-ending NL game and you keep yourself from going broke, you always have another shot tomorrow.

Keith

[ChekAtkins]

From another thread:

the blinds are at 25/50 and I have been getting CRAP for hands. I have been blinded down to 600.

I am delt A 8 3 off of the button and decided to try to steal the blinds (BB has given up blinds in the past). So i raise to 200.

I don't know the exact blind structure of the game you're in but based on the SNGs I've played, there is no way to be "blinded down to 600" when the blinds are still only 25/50. You would have to have played some hands to lose that much (and that's fine, it happens). But when I read that statement in another thread I thought; "Here's another indication that Kadin might be playing little too loose early on".

And IMO, betting 200 in that situation with A8 from 3 off the button is another indication.

Then again, I'm too tight. It's not that unusual for the first player to bust before I even play a hand.

[keithb]

The only time I bust out first in a SNG is because I either pushed with aces or kings (after being re-raised of course) and they got busted. I said "ok its only $5 or $10 and I'm up against ace rag or a smaller pair, in which case I'm still a heavy favorite". It will happen occasionally. IMO, there's really no valid reason to even enter a pot without AA or KK or AK suited from 10/20 to 15/30 in blinds. There's too many things that can go wrong.

That being said, I will limp in the SB with almost anything early on since its cheap, because in the long run, its worth it for that low percentage, occasional ridiculous flop when you catch the nuts or near nuts. Its less painful to call the SB with nothing and fold it away if re-raised by the BB or once the flop comes and you miss it. Limping with the SB has the dual benefit of putting you in an extra hand, so you don't look like a complete tightwad.

Just how I play em....

[ADS]

IMO, there's really no valid reason to even enter a pot without AA or KK or AK suited from 10/20 to 15/30 in blinds.  There's too many things that can go wrong.

I read the thread and found it informative and was not going to respond till I read this.

Maybe your problem is that you are not taking advantage of good hands at the start of the S&G. Sometimes you should take advantage of the "fish" before they are all gone. You might find yourself with bigger stacks when it comes down to 6 left.

You would not enter a pot (with a raise) with QQ? AQs?

[Kadin]

to answer a few questions:

I play at Party Poker... the blinds go up every 10 hands. 10/15, 15/30, 25/50, 50/100, 75/150, 100/200... etc.
I don't know about you guys but it has to be similar on other sites.... at the end of level 3 when the blinds are at 25/50 there are not always, but most often 5 or 6 people left. When there are that few of people and you are not getting any premium hands you get blinded down pretty fast. So the first answer to a question about getting blinded down fast... yes it does happen by the 25/50 round.

Another question... i think was do i play QQ and AQs? Hells yes i do... i play AJo early in the sngs. Maybe this is bad but i find many people playing alot of garbage early in these things and I butt heads w/ KJ, QJ and hands like that ALOT when I have AJ, AQ.... people seem to love the dominated hands. Sure it gets me in trouble sometimes but more often than not I am up agaist the worst hand.

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe i do play to loose early. I try limping in alot w/ small pocket pair. Just recently i have decided not to play the small suited connectors unless i am in the small blind and there are lots of people in.... i think those were my biggest losers because i was limping with the alot. I like the small pockets though because they are so easy to play... and early they don't cost much.

I will try to tighten it up early, try to get more money in on my good hands, quit playing the suited connectors, and not get to crazy with my steals when it gets down to 5 people. Sound good? Does it sound like i should change anything else other than that stuff?

Thanks,
kadin

[cowboy_phil]

I have a few suggestions.

1) switch sites. There are various other sites that offer 1500 starting chips and 10-15 min levels. Also maybe the play has gotten better at party, but when I used to play $10-$20 SNGs there, usually over half the field would be gone by 25/50.

2) post some problematic hands. It's hard to get an indication of what you're doing wrong by such general posts. For example, when you're up against a tight-aggressive opponent and see a flop of Jxx, what do you do with TT?

3) looking at your ITM and ROI numbers, it seems like your finishing 3rd more than 1st. Maybe you can post of a breakdown of how many times you've finished at each place.

4) like Hopy said, there is no right way to play. There are TAG's that are successful, LAG's that are succesful, rocks who are successful, and even maniacs who are successful. Maybe you should experiment find your niche. What kind of opponents are giving you the most trouble? Try playing like them.

5) maybe you're being too tricky. With such short stacks and high blinds, many plays like restealing and bluff-raising are out of the playbook. Towards the end, you have to play solid, but aggressive.

6) switch sites.

[keithb]

The AA, KK and AK suited question in a 10-handed game is right out of T.J.s book on how to win 10 person tourneys (in his satellite section).

Now obviously this may be a bit stringent for the low limit games. I will sometimes call a smallish to modest bet with AQ or A through 10, particularly if suited. I will only do this if I'm in position. If I'm in middle position and there is a raise and two callers ahead of me, I'm not jumping in that muckety-muck because you know there's a medium-big pair in there or even worse, somebody on the back end will re-raise all in (which is frightening typical in the low limit SNGs - happens almost 75% of the time, I'd say). So, if I'm on the button with one of these hands, I probably call a small raise with few limpers in front of me, but that's about it.

I'm trying to help the guy out with solid advice (if you think T.J.'s style is solid), there are many ways to play this. PS, I've had my queens demolished enough times by pushing too hard with them early on that I know T.J. is onto something.

All I can say is my stats are solid at this level. 230 SNGs, 51% ITM, 37% ROI.

Keith