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Server Time: 11/20/2008 6:50:58 PM PACIFIC |
 NL SnG, Warren Olson, 31. Dec 2003 10:40 | ||
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| Been having a horrible time lately in NL SnGs and I am not sure I really know what I am doing. I could really use some general advice from the veteran SnG players. Thanks alot in advance. | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, PairTheBoard, 31. Dec 2003 11:27 | ||
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| I got hooked on $50 NL SNG's at PP a couple of months ago. I've always been able to beat low structured limit ring games. But these SNG's have me stumped so far. I'm just breaking even. I'm thinking the key is to really work hard on quickly picking up signals on what kind of opponents you're up against. The thing is that the value of your hand is extremely variable depending on your opponent and the current chip stack situation in relation to the blinds. The general weakness I see is that people will call when they should fold. The overagressive players will bet when they should check. The weakest players bust out early so in order to take advantage of them I think you have to take GOOD speculative gambles early. Do not overdo this though. But don't pass up a good gamble early just because it's early in the tourny. If it's a really good gamble and you don't take advantage of it you will likely be forced into a less favorable gamble later. I think too much is made of survival. You need to stay agressive all the way to give yourself a chance at the bigger payoffs. Those are my current feelings which are subject to revision. Like I said, I'm only breaking even on these seductive games. I've also played some $200 games. I'd really like to know if anyone is beating those games for 30-40%. | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, aussiedude, 31. Dec 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Warren, Overall it has a lot to do with your style of play. A lot of posters here have previously suggested the best strategy is to wait for premium hands in the early stages and let the weak players and maniacs battle it out. Then as you get down to 5 or less players, you need to loosen up considerably. Personally when it gets shorthanded (heads-up or 3 players), I will try to see a cheap flop with any 2 suited or any king, will raise with any ace and will jam it if the board comes scary. I have a relatively tight style of play overall, so I prefer waiting for others to knock themselves out early, and it works for me. PairTheBoard from his response seems to have a more aggressive style, and if that is what works for him/her, then that's fine too. Overall the low buy-in SnG's ($5 & $10), if you aren't in the money at least 50% of your starts then I would suggest there are some things that you need to work on. The $30's on PP are slightly better - you will occasionally get someone who will make a gutsy laydown in the face of a decent sized bet - but they are only slightly less of a crapshoot than the 5's and 10's. Unfortunately the 800 starting chips on PP make it tough to wait around for too long...you do have to get some cards eventually and if you just don't get them, then there isn't much you can do about it. Just my $0.02. Aussie dude | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, PairTheBoard, 31. Dec 2003 14:49 | ||
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| Actually, the style aussiedude describes, as well as that posted by Felicia below is pretty close to how I play. What I'm suggesting is that I think it may be a mistake to ignore or overlook oportunities in the first 3 rounds when the blinds are relatively small. Weaker playrers in these rounds are most prone to overvalueing their hands either via calling or overbetting them. It's also during these rounds when you can actually play some real poker rather than just deciding whether your cards are worth an All-In or not. If you are not able to build your chip stack during these rounds then you are likely to find yourself forced to make All-In Blind stealing plays with lesser hands than you would like - and you will get called - and you will run into monsters on your left. It happens tooo often. In games with nothing but maniacs you hardly need to play a hand. They will knock themselves out and you into the money. But as you move up you will find it harder and harder to outplay the final five. I just think if you ignore your opportunities to outplay the weakest five you will find yourself short stacked and in a bind before you get in the money too often. And you will be passing on good chances at the bigger payouts. I'd still like to hear from people who are beating the $200 games. Even at a 40% ROI the $50 games are barely worth my time. If I can't find a strategy to move up I'll have to give up on SNG's and go back to structured limit ring games. | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, FeliciaLee, 31. Dec 2003 12:33 | ||
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| Which site are you playing SNG's on? I have an overall "strategy" for Stars $10+1 (can be modified slightly for 5+.50 or 20+2). I also have a strategy I copied from another site for Party SNG's, up to $30+3. I haven't use the Party strategy, but I have several sources who insist that it works. Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, Warren Olson, 31. Dec 2003 12:45 | ||
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| I would apprecitate getting a hold of the strategy you found for Party, that is where I play. I was unable to get your Web site to come up. Please let me know how I could obtain the strategy. Warren | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, FlopDaNutz, 31. Dec 2003 12:49 | ||
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| I am interested also Felicia, chesterh21@aol.com | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, Warren Olson, 31. Dec 2003 12:54 | ||
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| on 31. Dec 2003 12:45 Warren Olson wrote: > I would apprecitate getting a hold of the strategy you found for Party, that is > where I play. I was unable to get your Web site to come up. Please let me > know how I could obtain the strategy. > Warren wolson2@mailexcite.com | ||
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| Re: NL SnG, FeliciaLee, 31. Dec 2003 13:35 | ||
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| I don't have it on my journal website. It is a strategy I found on another discussion group. I have been updating my journal, but maybe Yahoo was down for repairs or something. Who knows! I'll just copy and paste it here. I don't think it's copywrite protected or anything, someone just posted it publically on a discussion group. Felicia :) <<on 31. Dec 2003 12:45 Warren Olson wrote: > I would apprecitate getting a hold of the strategy you found for Party, that is > where I play. I was unable to get your Web site to come up. Please let me > know how I could obtain the strategy. > Warren | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, FeliciaLee, 31. Dec 2003 13:37 | ||
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| How to beat the single table NO LIMIT ONLINE Tournaments The first thing to realize is these single table tournaments are not like multi table ones. The vast majority of the players are terrible. We will take a $33 single 10 handed tournament from Party Poker and go through it step by step. The first you know is you receive T800 in chips. The blinds start at 10-15 for 10 hands, progress to 15-30 for 10 hands, proceed to 25-50 for 10 hands and then reach 50-100 for 10 hands. Then the blinds keep going higher every 10 hands. Smart play dictates you play EXTREMELY tight the first 3 rounds. You may want to try this as an experiment just to see the validity of what I am about to tell you. Buy into the tournament and push the away from the table button. Wait for the 1st three rounds to go by and then start playing. Your stack at this time would be -25 for the 1st round of blinds. -45 for the second round of blinds and -75 for the 3rd round of blinds. You would now have a stack of T655 and would be ready to play. Probably the tournament would be down to 6 people by now. You also have not played a hand and people are aware of it. Try this with a $5 0r $10 tourney and see what happens. Don't think you are now entitled to go into the game trying to steal. You now wait, being much aware of your position. The blinds will be 50-100 now and when you make your 1st move, bet your whole stack. It doesn't matter if you have AA or AK, bet your whole stack.. These one table tournaments are not like multi table ones. When you open, move you whole stack in if it is small. Much larger stack still require opening bets of approximately 10 to 1 or all your chips. You will find this is a difficult style to combat when playing these one table tourneys. The problem most people have playing the early stages is the blinds are small and people tend to play to lose. Throw away small pairs, AJ and such. Don't even think of playing these hands when opening the pot. First of all, most have no idea of how much to open with. Say the blinds are 10-15. You are dealt a pair of 10's. What do you open with? What happens if you are called? Forget about playing these hands except in the blinds or on the button. What happens in the early stages of these tourneys means very little. Better to get the blinds than go out losing your money in bits and pieces. First under the gun with AA, bet all your chips. Many of these people call with pairs and Ax. I have seen some of the most atrocious play possible in these tourneys. A person stacks off before the flop and is called by a pair of 33 or so. The best the person could have is in the probability of a coin toss, if not much worse. At the beginning of these NO LIMIT tourneys, play ever chip like it was your last. The tourney starts when you hit the 50-100 blind area. By this time, you will probably be down to 6 players and have a whole different perspective on the game. Stop opening with A6s,KQs, or garbage like this. If you can't stick all your chips into the pot, don't open. Obviously you will find times you will be dealt a pair of KK in the 10-15 blinds. Obviously if you stack off, you may and will run into AA. Problem is if you do, you will get broke anyway, just in a different manner. Try the method I am explaining to you. It will work and many times when you do stack off, you will be surprised what calls you. Stealing the blinds comes later on in the tourney, at the 50-100 part. Here when down to 5-6 players, you will be forced to attempt steals. Though not really steals from a sense. Here you can stack off with smaller pairs and Ax when on the button or one away. Isolation is the key to winning these tourneys. Take on and beat 1 player and save enough chips to be able to take a blind or two without a mandatory call because your stack is too small, when you get down to 6 players or so. The number 1 priority is to get to the final 3 and a payoff. These tourneys are a waiting game. Wait, even if you don't play a hand for the first 3 rounds. Avoid the multi way pots and dumb medium pairs when opened in front of you. Wait until the tourney gets short so you can stack off and get you 1 on 1 encounter. Once you make the money, then you can play. Remember one thing most of you don't know what to do. Early position, you are dealt a pair of JJ with blinds of 15-30. What to do? Dump them and listen to what I say. If you raise 60. 100 or 150, what happens? What happens when a over card hits? What happens if you get multi callers? Realize all this does is hurt you. For even if you do win a few hundred or double up, the tournaments starts when the blinds go to 50-100. One of the last things you want to call on of these all-in bets with is with a small pair. Save playing these when you can stack off when down to 4 or 5 people. Far better to bet them, don't call with them, unless down to the last 2 or 3. This is probably the best way to become proficient at these small one table satellites. Don't gamble and play hands early. It doesn't matter what you do until you reach the 50-100 level. Just make sure you have enough chips to be able to get the blinds without showing down. Winning without showing your hand is a big benefit in these satellites. Obviously you will get nailed by a big pair once in a while, but remember, you are also playing them and only them early in the tourney. Either stack off, bet half your stack or fold. VERY SIMPLE. Just stop losing these 30's 15's and other small amounts. I guarantee you will have much better tournament success with this advice than any you have ever received before. | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, palman, 31. Dec 2003 17:10 | ||
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| There is a good amount of this that is sound and likely proiftable advice. However I disagree largely with your evaluation of pocket pairs. If I get dealt any pocket pair... I will limp with it in any position the first two rounds. blinds 25/50 is a little more speculative, but it depends on the makeup of the table. One thing I will point out is that I have recently moved up to the 100's and been at the 50's for a while before that, so its been a while since I've done the 30's. The 200 extra starting chips are huge, as they allow you to risk losing the chips by getting raised out of your limped pocket pair by a raiser behind you. The implied odds of the pocket pairs with the maniacs who play these are simply too high. If the blinds have been doubled or tripled especially level 1, the potential for the payoff is huge. I think if you're mucking JJ and under early, and you're pushing in as soon as you play, you're going to have a harder time doubling up, and the whole profitability of the tournament is based on getting the hands. Throw in the fact that you recommend just flat out pushing with AA and KK and you're likely only to get the blinds when you do get a hand, these two things combined will make it so you are likely playing shortstacked as often as possible. I cash in about 80% of the tournaments that I double up at some point in the first 3 rounds, so I look for an opportunity to do just that. Actually this is the main reason I moved up to the 50's, since the extra starting chips takes a lot of the luck involved with simply getting the good cards out. Also with the extra chips it allows you to make moves and steals at pots without committing half your stack. Furthermore the people at this level won't let you get away with bluffs that often since they are so loose. (I found this to be true at the 50's recently as well, thus have moved up to the 100's) I honestly think one of my main keys to success... is 1) being tight and 2) never making button raises or SB raises against the BB early in a tournament if checked around to me. If I do I'll do it with a monster and I'll show. When blinds are 25/50 and folded to you in the SB...muck without a good hand. The BB will be thankful, and after a few of them will realize you don't make these steals. Then your steals are more likely to be successful when you need them to be. Sometimes the players still won't get me respect, but at the 100's I think I do get it. | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, FeliciaLee, 31. Dec 2003 18:42 | ||
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| I didn't write this strategy. I found it on the Internet. I don't even play SNG's at Party, lol. Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, palman, 31. Dec 2003 20:25 | ||
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| well I want to blame you directly for my perceived errors in the article anyways ;P | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, Formless, 4. Jan 2004 09:44 | ||
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| I remember when this article was first published on the internet. It was originally written for Paradise Poker $30 SNGs with 1000 starting chips. This is a very good strategy and an excellent article, one of the best I have read. The only problem is that eveyone else who plays above $30 has read it too. That's why I'm doing silly stuff these days like calling huge all in bets with AJo, I gotta stay a step ahead of the pack ;-) on 31. Dec 2003 13:37 FeliciaLee wrote: > How to beat the single table NO LIMIT ONLINE Tournaments > > The first thing to realize is these single table tournaments are not like multi > table ones. The vast majority of the players are terrible. We will take a $33 > single 10 handed tournament from Party Poker and go through it step by step. > > The first you know is you receive T800 in chips. The blinds start at 10-15 for > 10 hands, progress to 15-30 for 10 hands, proceed to 25-50 for 10 hands and > then reach 50-100 for 10 hands. Then the blinds keep going higher every 10 > hands. > > Smart play dictates you play EXTREMELY tight the first 3 rounds. You may want > to try this as an experiment just to see the validity of what I am about to > tell you. Buy into the tournament and push the away from the table button. Wait > for the 1st three rounds to go by and then start playing. Your stack at this > time would be -25 for the 1st round of blinds. -45 for the second round of > blinds and -75 for the 3rd round of blinds. You would now have a stack of T655 > and would be ready to play. Probably the tournament would be down to 6 people > by now. You also have not played a hand and people are aware of it. Try this > with a $5 0r $10 tourney and see what happens. > > Don't think you are now entitled to go into the game trying to steal. You now > wait, being much aware of your position. The blinds will be 50-100 now and when > you make your 1st move, bet your whole stack. It doesn't matter if you have AA > or AK, bet your whole stack.. These one table tournaments are not like multi > table ones. When you open, move you whole stack in if it is small. Much larger > stack still require opening bets of approximately 10 to 1 or all your chips. > You will find this is a difficult style to combat when playing these one table > tourneys. > > The problem most people have playing the early stages is the blinds are small > and people tend to play to lose. Throw away small pairs, AJ and such. Don't > even think of playing these hands when opening the pot. First of all, most have > no idea of how much to open with. Say the blinds are 10-15. You are dealt a > pair of 10's. What do you open with? What happens if you are called? > > Forget about playing these hands except in the blinds or on the button. What > happens in the early stages of these tourneys means very little. Better to get > the blinds than go out losing your money in bits and pieces. First under the > gun with AA, bet all your chips. Many of these people call with pairs and Ax. > > I have seen some of the most atrocious play possible in these tourneys. A > person stacks off before the flop and is called by a pair of 33 or so. The best > the person could have is in the probability of a coin toss, if not much worse. > At the beginning of these NO LIMIT tourneys, play ever chip like it was your > last. The tourney starts when you hit the 50-100 blind area. By this time, you > will probably be down to 6 players and have a whole different perspective on > the game. > > Stop opening with A6s,KQs, or garbage like this. If you can't stick all your > chips into the pot, don't open. Obviously you will find times you will be dealt > a pair of KK in the 10-15 blinds. Obviously if you stack off, you may and will > run into AA. Problem is if you do, you will get broke anyway, just in a > different manner. > > Try the method I am explaining to you. It will work and many times when you do > stack off, you will be surprised what calls you. Stealing the blinds comes > later on in the tourney, at the 50-100 part. Here when down to 5-6 players, you > will be forced to attempt steals. Though not really steals from a sense. Here > you can stack off with smaller pairs and Ax when on the button or one away. > > Isolation is the key to winning these tourneys. Take on and beat 1 player and > save enough chips to be able to take a blind or two without a mandatory call > because your stack is too small, when you get down to 6 players or so. The > number 1 priority is to get to the final 3 and a payoff. These tourneys are a > waiting game. Wait, even if you don't play a hand for the first 3 rounds. Avoid > the multi way pots and dumb medium pairs when opened in front of you. Wait > until the tourney gets short so you can stack off and get you 1 on 1 encounter. > Once you make the money, then you can play. > > Remember one thing most of you don't know what to do. Early position, you are > dealt a pair of JJ with blinds of 15-30. What to do? Dump them and listen to > what I say. If you raise 60. 100 or 150, what happens? What happens when a over > card hits? What happens if you get multi callers? Realize all this does is hurt > you. For even if you do win a few hundred or double up, the tournaments starts > when the blinds go to 50-100. > > One of the last things you want to call on of these all-in bets with is with a > small pair. Save playing these when you can stack off when down to 4 or 5 > people. Far better to bet them, don't call with them, unless down to the last 2 > or 3. This is probably the best way to become proficient at these small one > table satellites. Don't gamble and play hands early. It doesn't matter what you > do until you reach the 50-100 level. Just make sure you have enough chips to be > able to get the blinds without showing down. Winning without showing your hand > is a big benefit in these satellites. Obviously you will get nailed by a big > pair once in a while, but remember, you are also playing them and only them > early in the tourney. Either stack off, bet half your stack or fold. VERY > SIMPLE. > > Just stop losing these 30's 15's and other small amounts. I guarantee you will > have much better tournament success with this advice than any you have ever > received before. | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, FeliciaLee, 4. Jan 2004 12:02 | ||
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| LOL! Poor Formless! Although I don't play online anymore, I still say Stars has the best SNG's for the educated player. Just IMHO. Felicia :) <<on 4. Jan 2004 09:44 Formless wrote: > > I remember when this article was first published on the internet. It was originally written for > Paradise Poker $30 SNGs with 1000 starting chips. > This is a very good strategy and an excellent article, one of the best I have read. The only > problem is that eveyone else who plays above $30 has read it too. That's why I'm doing silly stuff > these days like calling huge all in bets with AJo, I gotta stay a step ahead of the pack ;-)>> | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, Formless, 4. Jan 2004 14:34 | ||
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| on 4. Jan 2004 12:02 FeliciaLee wrote: > LOL! Poor Formless! I'm actually quite wealthy ;-) | ||
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| Re: General Strategy for Party SNG's, Jordan, 7. Jan 2004 11:09 | ||
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| I refuse to play PartyPoker SNG's anymore. It really is a total crapshoot. You have absolutely no room to manuever. I agree with Felicia that Stars have the best SNG's. 1500 chips give you the ability to outplay players and not be scared to get into a pot. | ||
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