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Server Time: 10/11/2008 5:35:59 AM PACIFIC |
 Another NL hand, iceman5, 30. Dec 2003 10:49 | ||
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| Im playing $50 NL (blinds .25/.50). I have AA. MP raises $1. Another MP calls. I raise $3. Both call. The flop comes 49T with 2 spades. First player checks. Second MP bets $5. I raise $10 more. First guy folds. The Bettor raises all in. I have about $25 more and this will put me all in. The pot is about $40. He has to have 99, TT, JJ, QQ, or KK. Maybe even the other 2 aces. I have had that happen to me before. What do you do? Scroll down for what happened.... I didnt think he would call my preflop reraise with 99 or TT, especially with another guy who had open raised and then called my reraise. I figured him for KK or QQ so I called. Of course he had 99 and I lost my stack. Damn! | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Highflyin3484k, 30. Dec 2003 11:25 | ||
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| Coming in from MP with a $1 dollar raise isnt suggestive to me of KK or QQ, and a flat call of your re-raise pre-flop could suggest AK or a low to medium pocket pair, I cannot put him on a pocket pair higher than JJ so there is a good chance he did flop good with TT or 99, he wouldnt make this move with AK (or would he). So when I first read your post before scrolling I said to my self, he has scared jacks, so I call. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, KevinK, 30. Dec 2003 13:25 | ||
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| It is stuff like this that makes me think that AA is nowhere near as secure as anyone thinks. Had the rockets last night and called by J Q. Flop brought a jack, turn brought a heart draw to me, river brought a third jack. AA is the ANTICHRIST of hands! | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Jordan, 30. Dec 2003 14:39 | ||
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| well if you don't want these sort of sticky situations you can always raise a lot more than 3 bucks.....you won't win as much but at least you can win a small pot instead of losing a big one. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Highflyin3484k, 30. Dec 2003 14:41 | ||
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| I would have prolly done that too, I would have made it 7 or 8 to go... but thats just me and Im sure that theory is flawed but I'd prefer winning the pot there... if he calls GREAT either way Im happy. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, iceman5, 30. Dec 2003 15:16 | ||
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| Kevin said...."well if you don't want these sort of sticky situations you can always raise a lot more than 3 bucks.....you won't win as much but at least you can win a small pot instead of losing a big one." I had a rather long debate with mroban (or was it mozman?) a few days ago about this exact subject. I said that it was better to go all in before the flop with AA so he would have to make a decision to risk his entire stack now..before seeing anymore cards. If I make a big bet after the flop, he will fold if he missed and go all in if he hit his set ( or with a bluff). Since I dont know what he has , I dont know if he hit the set or is bluffing. He said that he would rather let him see a flop because he thought he could get more money out of him that way and that he could smell a set. Well, I guess I cant smell a set. Next time I do it my way. This probably sounds like Im blaming him. Im not. I take responsibilty for my own mistakes. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Eaglesfan1, 30. Dec 2003 22:26 | ||
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| My first thought while i was scrolling down was either a set of 10's or 9's. I personally like your play all the way through until the all in call. Warning bells should have been going off in your head. You have to figure if he has KK or QQ and maybe JJ he probably would have re-raised the original better pre-flop. With KK he might have also pushed all in pre-flop after your re-raise of 3$ and the cold call in front of him. So with that said its tough to put him on KK, QQ, or JJ which are the most likely hands he could have that you still have beat. The way he played it pre-flop and then the all in after the flop should have indicated a set. He probably wouldn't go all in after the flop with a re-raise in front of him from a player who raised before the flop if he had pocket 8's or 7's and 2 overcards on the board so you could have ruled them out also. A bluff can definately be ruled out of here also theres no way you can bluff a pre-flop re-raiser who just re-raised you on the flop. I think you played it fine pre-flop. When playing AA pre-flop there's no definite answer whether to go all in or raise a standard 3-4x BB. It all depends on how loose or tight your opponents are pre-flop and how many opponents you have. You should factor in if they are aggressive or passive on the flop or not also. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Jordan, 31. Dec 2003 07:49 | ||
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| I just like to let the other player know that if they are going to play in this pot, they are going to have to get in for more than just another small standard raise. I'd rather make them pay to make their set than let them in cheaply and then have to make a tough decision about whether or not they hit the set. If you've raised it a bigger amount, bet on the flop and get raised all-in, either the player is a maniac or he most likely can beat your aces. | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Barry T, 31. Dec 2003 13:24 | ||
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| Hi. I mucked before I read further. You have pretty much screamed big pair, and you opponent has nodded and raised all your chips. Remember, NL is not a game of winning pots with questionable hands; it is game of getting the OTHER guy to call when you have a powerhouse. Per-flop, your correct raise should be to make it $4 to go. The is $1.75 in the pot when it gets to you. Your call will put $2.75 in the pot, and the you will want to raise around the size of the pot. That is $2.75, so round up to $3. the means you should raise to $4 (($1 call plus $3 raise). Not that this will make a difference, but you should raise the correct amount with aces (and with other hands as well). BarryT | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, apu, 31. Dec 2003 21:55 | ||
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| 1. There was a middle position caller to the raise so your pot size bet there was $5, not $4. 2. I agree that his $3 was too low but even a pot size bet there is not too much of a mistake for him to call an extra 4 to hit his set if he puts you on a big pair and if he hits his set he can get your stack like he did in this instance. The advantage of aa is before the flop and with a raiser and a caller I would be inclined to overbet the pot preflop to compound any callers mistake. MANY players will play that 99 to your reraise preflop so why not compound his mistake? | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Barry T, 1. Jan 2004 10:51 | ||
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| Hi. 1. Yes, I missed the middle caller. $5 is correct. 2. I did not suggest a pot size raise woulkd have foldedthe 99. Juast that it is the correct sized bet to make. People should understand what sized raises to make. 3. If you find yourself varying your bet sizes with your hand type. you will have a probably have a hard time in better, higher limit NL games. Where you opponents are fairly unaware, you can get away with it, perhaps. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, iceman5, 1. Jan 2004 14:46 | ||
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| Barry, I understand what you're saying, but what is wrong with making a less than pot size raise sometimes with top pair top kicker (or an overpair) to throw people off. Lets say you have AQ or AK. The flop comes A95 with 2 clubs. You bet 1/2 or 2/3 of the pot every now and then to make it look like you are betting a draw and dont want to get too involved. Of course if your opponent has a draw you are giving him better odds to draw, but wouldnt this be ok every now and then to change things up? | ||
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| Re: Another NL hand, Barry T, 4. Jan 2004 23:23 | ||
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| Hi. If you make the same play on a variety of hands, you ARE changing things up. There are tournament pros who make smaller raises early and larger raises late, but it is always the same raise early and the same raise late. There is nothing inherently wrong with changing provided a) you change for a very good reason (not the one you gave) and b) you are certain you do not fall into a pattern that will make you readable to savvy opponents. BarryT | ||
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| BarryT., apu, 2. Jan 2004 12:35 | ||
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| on 1. Jan 2004 10:51 Barry T wrote: > Hi. > > 1. Yes, I missed the middle caller. $5 is correct. > > 2. I did not suggest a pot size raise woulkd have foldedthe 99. Juast that it is the correct > sized bet to make. People should understand what sized raises to make. > > 3. If you find yourself varying your bet sizes with your hand type. you will have a probably > have a hard time in better, higher limit NL games. Where you opponents are fairly unaware, > you can get away with it, perhaps. > > BarryT > Well this is the exact reason I come on here to bounce ideas off professional players like yourself. Now that I play almost exclusively online, sometimes you can feel you are almost playng in a bubble. I am going to play the devil's advocate here and disagree with you and I look forward to your comments. > I would argue that a pot size bet is not the "correct" bet to make. The correct bet to make with your AA is how much the players will call. The most common mistake players make at this level (LL NL) is wanting to see the flop. This is especially the case with any PP. The higher % of their stack you can get them to commit the easier your decisions are post flop. IE If you get someone to commit half their stack preflop, what board can you not go allin with on flop? Finally, as absurd as this may sound, the bigger the raise the more apt players at this level will be to go allin raisng back at you with medium pairs (99,1010,JJ). So my original point was that the players, 1 raising and the other calling that raise, are apt to call a larger than pot size raise in this situation and making a pot size bet is actually not "correct" because you are not allowing the players to make bigger mistakes on every street. To comment on point 3, most of the players are unaware:). But...betting the same even in a higher NL game irregardless of what the players will do in a certain situation is a bigger mistake than varying your bets. Example,Player1 sees underbetting pot as a weakness will come overtop, will laydown to overbetting pot, Player 2 sees underbetting pot as fishy won't get trapped, sees overbetting the pot as weakness You flop a monster or a medium hand and you play the same against both? | ||
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| Re: BarryT., Barry T, 4. Jan 2004 23:31 | ||
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| Hi, apu Thanks for the question. I would never say you should not play the player in no limit poker. You always should. However, rarely are you in a pot pre-flop situation with only one oppoent, which a what we were discussing here. I was making a general point that the original posterrshould have made a pot sized raise instead of the tiny one he did make, and I still believe that. In a forum like this, I think that is very good advice. If you are playing a game with several players, and you are making a raise pre-flop, normally a pot-sized raise is a good thing to do. If course, a lot depends on relaticve stack size (if the pot-sized raise is 2/3 of your stack, you should typically go all in instead, for example) and who you are against. But if you are looking a a whole field of players, your comment that player A will reacty differently than player B does not come into play that often. But if it does, such asone player is dominant for some reason, or you believe you can fool the initial raiser into committing all of his chips, for example, then you shoud certainly go for it! BarryT | ||
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