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Server Time: 11/20/2008 9:27:04 PM PACIFIC |
 loose game preflop raising, Luvhum, 28. Dec 2003 10:06 | ||
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| Using BobCeaffone and Jim Brier starting hand standards. Is it still profitableto raise all their preflop raising standards when the game I play in always has six and more players calling.these callers call any two. The game is limit 5-10.this game also plays 11 and 12 players more often than not. | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, Roy Cooke, 28. Dec 2003 15:44 | ||
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| If the players are loose AFTER the flop.......I tend to raise less in marginal situations as I do not want to make the pot bigger and give many of the weaker draws a better price to draw when I hit the flop! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 28. Dec 2003 10:06 Luvhum wrote: > Using BobCeaffone and Jim Brier starting hand standards. Is it still > profitableto raise all their preflop raising standards when the game I play in > always has six and more players calling.these callers call any two. The game is > limit 5-10.this game also plays 11 and 12 players more often than not. | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, Mark Gregorich, 29. Dec 2003 00:59 | ||
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| Good advice from Roy. Also, since you know the pot will be multi-way whether you raise or not, try to do your raising with hands that play well multi-way. For example (Roy's advice applies here as well), perhaps just call with AK or AQ offsuit, as the best hand you are likely to flop is a pair. By not raising, you won't be giving as favorable a price to your opponents to try and outdraw one pair. However, you may win a big pot if you hit a hand like QJ suited squarely, so you might consider raising with this type of hand - it does play well multi-way, but you need to remember that it will take more than one pair to win. I generally just call with this hand, however, but occasionally raise with it to mix up my game. Mark | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, noiseboy, 29. Dec 2003 10:17 | ||
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| With that many players, be very careful of any of the "trouble" hands as Doyle Brunson refers to them. Hands like Ajo, KQo, KJo, etc... are more dangerous when all the pots have many callers, because there is more chance you will be dominated. You flop a J to KJ and someone has AJ, or you flop an A to AJ and someone has AQ or AK, and so forth. In all these instances there is a good chance that you are a huge dog, so in a many handed game like that, I don't even want to mess with AJ, KQ or KJ in the first four or five spots unless they are suited. Having a lot of players magnifies the weaknesses of big unsuited hands, but it also increases the value of being suited, so something like KJs might be playable, even up front depending on the likelihood of a raise. Just be aware that one pair is likely not going to be a winner for you, so you want some room to improve. The best situation is to have something like AJs and get a flop of Jxx where both the x cards are suited to you, then you have a great hand. Whenever you have something made + a good draw, that is a hand you want to build a pot with. I'm normally of the opinion that you can loosen up preflop (with drawing hands esp) slighty in a game where there is a lot of multiway action, but tighten up post flop. In a game with 12 players, however, I would just tighten up period. The likelihood that the nuts or close to it are out are significantly increased when you have 12 hands out to start and 5-7 players taking every flop, so i would stick to a strategy similar to loose game O8B where you try to make huge hands, and often throw away made hands that likely won't improve or hold up with several people drawing at them, even if they are likely best now. Good luck! | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, Snorbolus, 29. Dec 2003 10:42 | ||
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| Noiseboy, I want to ask you some more about your more callers, more likelyhood of being dominated idea. Do you really think that, in a loose game, 5 callers makes it more likely that KJo (for instance) will be dominated, compared to if there were only 2 callers in the same game? It seems to me that a player with AJ or AQ is going to be in the pot anyway. The real danger for big, unsuited cards in multiway pots is that top pair best kicker becomes much less likely to hold up. If you are dominated then you are in trouble no matter how many callers come too. Indeed, more callers might even help you out a little those times you are dominated, by improving your odds to draw for two pair. Snorbolus on 29. Dec 2003 10:17 noiseboy wrote: > With that many players, be very careful of any of the "trouble" hands as Doyle > Brunson refers to them. Hands like Ajo, KQo, KJo, etc... are more dangerous when all > the pots have many callers, because there is more chance you will be dominated. You > flop a J to KJ and someone has AJ, or you flop an A to AJ and someone has AQ or AK, > and so forth. In all these instances there is a good chance that you are a huge dog, > so in a many handed game like that, I don't even want to mess with AJ, KQ or KJ in > the first four or five spots unless they are suited. > > Having a lot of players magnifies the weaknesses of big unsuited hands, but it also > increases the value of being suited, so something like KJs might be playable, even up > front depending on the likelihood of a raise. Just be aware that one pair is likely > not going to be a winner for you, so you want some room to improve. The best > situation is to have something like AJs and get a flop of Jxx where both the x cards > are suited to you, then you have a great hand. Whenever you have something made + a > good draw, that is a hand you want to build a pot with. > > I'm normally of the opinion that you can loosen up preflop (with drawing hands esp) > slighty in a game where there is a lot of multiway action, but tighten up post flop. > In a game with 12 players, however, I would just tighten up period. The likelihood > that the nuts or close to it are out are significantly increased when you have 12 > hands out to start and 5-7 players taking every flop, so i would stick to a strategy > similar to loose game O8B where you try to make huge hands, and often throw away made > hands that likely won't improve or hold up with several people drawing at them, even > if they are likely best now. > > Good luck! | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, noiseboy, 29. Dec 2003 12:38 | ||
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| Actually, I was mostly talking about the fact that his game is usually 11 or 12 handed combined with the fact that it is loose. If you are UTG 12 handed, there are still NINE people left to act behind you. I'll drop AJ or KJ in a heartbeat. But yes you are correct that an additional danger of hands like AJ in this type of game is that even if they hit, you often won't end up with a hand that will withstand all the people drawing at you. Multihanded you also get into a lot of situations where you hit two pair and it makes someone else a str8, or you hit trips and someone else fills, which can be very expensive. Anyway, as anyone who has played much short handed knows, each player you add or take out makes a big difference in what hands to play. Even playing eight handed as opposed to ten you can (and should) loosen up a bit on certain hands. Five handed or less, the big unsuited cards go way up in valued because of the much reduced risk of domination. Being shorthanded also reduces the value of suitedness somewhat, especially smaller suiteds, because you likely won't be getting good odds to draw. When you go the other way and start increasing players, the value of big drawing hands goes up. 12-handed, I'm much happier to see AKs than pocket AA or KK. There are a myriad of ways that two cards can fit into a flop, so even going up to 11-handed makes a difference. 12-handed is a huge difference from normal 9 or 10 handed. | ||
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| Re: loose game preflop raising, Snorbolus, 29. Dec 2003 13:05 | ||
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| Yep that's for sure. 12 handed Hold'em is a nightmare, you can play virtually no hands. Soooo boring. Thanks for clearing up the domination thing. Sometimes my thinking becomes a little muddled. I just like to check that I am on the same page as everyone else. Snorbolus | ||
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