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Server Time: 1/8/2009 5:20:49 AM PACIFIC |
 Right read, wrong move?, Andrew W, 27. Dec 2003 18:04 | ||
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| I'm in a low $$ SNG, NLHE. I've made some good hands, and have a pretty good chip stack. There are 5 or 6 of us left, and I am in good position. I can't remember the exact figures, so I'll paint with a broad brush, it's a narrow question I have. I am in the BB with 67 suited. I get to see it free, with 3 limpers. OK, interesting hand to see for free. Flop comes 696 two hearts. I'm loving this. I bet out - (now I think mistakenly, with one minimum bet) - may have been one caller before the last limper raises the pot. I don't even think about it, I re-raise the pot. He re-raises. I re-raise all in. At what point should I have slowed down and considered that I could have been beat? 99 would have killed me of course. But other than that, a 6 with what? a connector? Then I'm ahead of a 5 or tied with a 7. That's the question - should I be worried? Now the rest of the scenario... scroll down... He shows KK. Turn is blank, and river is of course, a King. So I was blown out of the water and unhappy, of course, but I also figured - I called it "right" since I was ahead and he was betting an overpair as if I had no 6. But should I have been cautious anyway? Not for an outdraw, but did I have a strong enough hand to bet that way anyway? (It really was the unraised BB, I didn't play it out of position, I promise - after the hand I even put in the chat "couldn't raise those kings to chase me out pre-flop eh?") | ||
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| Re: Right read, wrong move?, Flakes, 27. Dec 2003 18:20 | ||
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| I wouldn't put him on 99. I would think that if he had 99, he may have allowed you and perhaps even the other player to try and be the aggressor again on the turn. He could have flopped a 6 though or held a higher pocket pair, or a hand like AK of hearts. Those would be the hands that I would lean towards putting him on. But the case 6? Less likely than an overpair would be - and If he did flop the nut flush draw, then he needs to hit the flush as hitting one of his overs would not do him any good here. I like your play here. I don't know how this player played so I could be a bit off here, but that said, I take my chances with this one as well. Yeah, he "could have this and he could have that", but faint hearts don't win tournaments, or sit and go's for that matter. Flakes | ||
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| Re: Right read, wrong move?, Angel, 27. Dec 2003 18:32 | ||
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| You asked, "At what point should I have slowed down and considered that I could have been beat?" The answer is immediately upon him raising you on the flop. That doesn't mean you should throw away, it means you should slow down and evaluate the range of hands that you can put him on now that he's indicated that he has some strength. At this point I consider everything from A9 to a flush or straight draw to an overpair to a six. And I go right ahead and re-raise, like you did. But now he re-raised you again. Ok, now you've got more information. He likely has better than a draw or A9. Now we're talking overpair or a six against most sane opponents. (There are more variables here than I'm getting into - for instance, what's your table image - does he have reason to think you'll lay down to a re-raise? What does he think of your play? Does he consider you a fish or does he respect your play? Not knowing these answers I'm giving a cold "all things being equal against an unknown player" kind of reading.) Now before your re-raise all-in (and you might be pot committed at this point depending upon what the pot size is in relation to the stack you pushed all in with but I'll assume you have a healthy amount left) you re-evaluate pretty much the way you did. If he has 99 you are dead. Perhaps A6 - would he play that? Suited? Unsuited? Let's say he plays it suited but not unsuited. How about 96s? Let's say he won't. And then there is 76s and 65s both of whiuch you mentioned. He has 3 ways to have 99 - 1 way to have A6s - 1 way to have 65s and 1 way to have 76s. Obviously he also could have any big pair but if you weren't able to put him on such a hand then he had 4 ways to beat you, 1 way to lose to you and 1 to tie. If you are not considering it possible for him to have an overpair - in other words - if you only considered that he MUST have one of the 6 hands above - then you were a likely a big dog and you would not have pushed all-in. (Although a call may have been necessary depending upon your remaining chip count.) | ||
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| Re: Right read, wrong move?, Highflyin3484k, 28. Dec 2003 15:31 | ||
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| I too agree with angel, Its real hard to tell you an opinion on this situation, given that we know nothing about the player, (what hands he plays, was he on tilt... etc.). I think that if your playing a pretty solid player, warning bells need to go be going off on his 3 bet, he might have the Ax (h). I wouldnt put him on a 78 unless he was a maniac... (I dont know why he would three bet a 78 b/c he is dead to a 6 outer, (and thats not considering somone has 65s). Given no information on this guy I (when reading your post) put the guy on a 6x, but here you dont really have to be extremely worried about your kicker... unless you know this guy will play A6, or even K 6, Q 6, the more logical hands to put him on would he 67s, 56s, maybe a one gapper 86. So amidst this rambling I dont think I would have made that 4th re-raise for all your chips (granted I dont know if you have a substantial chip stack as compared to your opp.) I would have called the three bet and made a decision after the turn. King on the river hurts, sorry about the outcome... GL in the future Highflyin3484k | ||
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| Re: Right read, wrong move?, palman, 29. Dec 2003 07:01 | ||
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| I think the best way to play it is as follows: and you did it close to perfectly. (as evidenced by getting him all in) When someone flops a monster like trips, they don't bet out strong in EP with it. When someone does that usually they have some sort of draw... or just top pair (the 9). This is also a dream bluff flop, and people may recognize that. Most people realize this and will figure the bet for being weak. Combine that with most people in low level SnG's (even high level SnG's) cannot drop a hand like KK or AA (and on this flop even a hand like 10's) and will perceive your bet as being weak, and push all in on you. Also some people WILL push you all in with the flush or open ended straight draw, especially at the low limits. And heck some people might just flat out bluff it with AK - A10 seen it done a million times. As Phil Hellmuth would say all of this information leads me to a story, for one crucial decision... and that being make a strong bet on the flop, strong enough that for someone to raise you (and they will) they have to be totally committed to the pot. Occassionally you will run into a higher kicker on the trips, or the boat with the 9's, but more often than not, and often enough that it's profitable, you will get someone who thinks his KK is good. You're the chipleader, this is low limit NL and people like to throw chips around, and I'd say being all in is profitable in most situations that someone would re-raise you all in. Your only other options are 1) check - if you check-raise or check-call its like wearing a big sign around your neck, especially in the BB, that you have trips. Thus the only time you'll get any action is if someone has you beat or knows you have it and just doesnt care and likes his flush or straight draw. Check-call is the slightly better option here (as far as trying to get more chips out of them, but not in the sense of protecting your hand), but either way the amount of chips you are likely to get is no more than however much somoene decides to take a stab at it. And with this option you also have the danger of it getting checked around, a scare card (heart or straight or heck any other random card that gives someone with a pocket pair a boat) comes out, and you can't muck your hand. 2) make a weak minimum bet- Most sane players will realize that if you make a minimum bet, get raised, and you re-raise... that you've got it. Also many also do the weak bet with a strong hand in the BB so you might not get any action at all. Worst of all is you get 2-3 callers and a scare card comes. So this option isn't really preferable, although it worked in your case Thus I think the answer is make a large bet in EP, its deceptive, people won't give it much respect, you protect against giving free cards to drawing hands, and thus the least amount of risk overall, and all you're potentially losing by doing this is whatever bets or bluffs people will make if you slowplayed it, which usually won't be THAT many chips. Your chipstack is important here... as a healthy stack you want to try to make a big score... if you were shortstacked you'd check and then go all in, since you're small enough someone will make a bad call just because you're shortstacked, and if no one calls the amount of chips you get from peoples bets are just fine. If they had a draw and mucked it being low on chips they mighta had closer to the proper odds to call, and you need all the chips you can get. You cannot risk with that dream flop getting no more chips out of anyone by being aggressive right away. Thoughts on my analysis? | ||
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