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Server Time: 10/15/2008 4:08:54 PM PACIFIC |
 A pot-limit blunder???, grant pittman, 25. Dec 2003 10:19 | ||
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| I was in Vegas recently for the tournament at the Bellagio. Tournaments are not my forte but I did manage to enter the $1500 no-limit event and did ok. Sorry Mr. Cooke.....your horse ran out of gas. The tournament seemed to be a huge success and this is great for poker. During the tournament the live games in the high limit area have their good and bad moments. Overall, I thought the $80-$160 and $100-$200 games were marginally good but sometimes they were just completely unplayable! It was at these times when I wandered around looking for a better game. I watched a pot-limit holdem game with a $25-$50 blind structure for a lap and liked what I saw. I bought in for $5000 which was an average stack at the table and won a few small pots before this hand came up. I was in the SB holding black jacks. Two players limped in and the action was on me. I considered raising the pot in an attempt to take the pot right there but reconsidered for two reasons. The first is that I wasn't sure it would work. The 2 limpers were loose playing players who both had a lot of chips and were more than willing to gamble. If I raised now, I would build the pot and likely put myself in a tough spot after the flop with the worst position. The second reason I went against raising was that it advertises clearly what my likely holding is. These players were in tune enough to know I should have a big pair and may take a shot at me if an ace flopped. I checked and the BB, an experienced pot-limit player, also checked. The flop came 4-7-8 offsuit. I considered a bet into the $200 pot but decided to check and see who liked it. The BB lead out for $100 and was called by both limpers. Hmmmmmm. I didn't like what was going on in this hand. The BB was a tricky player with experience. Why was he only betting $100? I thought it could only be for 2 reasons. Either he was trying to "pad the pot" so he could fire a big bet on the turn or he was very weak and was only investing a small amount in hopes of winning the pot now. I was swayed toward believing the first explanation. I thought this player knew that the limpers and me could hold any type of hand and that a weak bet would likely be a waste of money that would yield no real information about his opponents hand. I believed it was a "pad" bet but at the last second I said "....wait a minute Grant.....you have the limpers beat....if the BB bets the turn you can just fold" and so I decided to call the $100 bet. The pot was now at $600. The turn brought the jack of diamonds! Now I liked my position! I could beat everything except a straight. I decided to check to see if any one of the limpers came to life with this card. The BB surprised me and bet $500! Both limpers folded. At this point in the hand I was very happy. In order for me to be losing, the BB would have had to lead the flop with the nuts or lead with an open ended draw (9,10) that just got home on me. I took a peek at his chips. He had about $2300 left. I had no intention of folding my hand but I wondered how much I could raise and still be called by a losing hand. My opponent was a strong player with lots of pot-limit experience however he had been losing and mentioned to me that he was stuck 13 grand and was the unluckiest player in the room. If he had 2 pair, I thought a big raise would fold him but I wasn't sure. If he had a set I felt he would go broke with it. I decided to make it $2000 flat making a $1500 raise. He quickly reraised me his last $775. YUKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!! He obviously had the straight but I had to call and hope to fill on the river. I missed and he showed me the 5,6 of clubs. He had flopped the straight. He was trapping on the flop and I suspected it but wasn't quite sure. What do you think? Should I have moved on the flop and released if I got any sort of action? Let me know what you think. Happy holidays to all!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, philly, 25. Dec 2003 11:46 | ||
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| The fact that he was the bb clearly made this a difficult decision. You said that it felt like a trap when he made the flop bet. Your instinct, along with your assesment of the player probably justified a fold. But, it seems that it is just as hard for a seasoned pro to let let a solid pair go as it is for us little folk. (I guess that's kind of encouraging in a way). Once the third Jack hit, I probably would have set him all in as well, as your bet seemed like it was intended to do. The moral of the story is: Although many of us are inclined to gamble, It is important to trust our instincts, especially in pot limit and no limit where pot sizes and our investments in them can quickly get out of control. | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, Angel, 25. Dec 2003 12:09 | ||
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| Grant, First of all, I don't raise in your position pre-flop for the same reasons. If you do, you're almost forced to bet out if an ace or king falls and hope they lay down. Not the kind of position I like to find myself in. As for the $100 bet on the turn, the number of possible holdings which could initiate a $100 bet are rather large. You've a rainbow flop that doesn't figure on hitting either of the limpers and you've checked. I'll take a shot at leading the pot with a wide variety of holdings - everything from the 56 (nuts) to a K8o (which would very likely be the best hand) to a T9 semi-bluff. That said, I make the same check (for information) and call. As for your question of whether you should have moved on the flop and released if he played back at you, my decision is going to be based on what the BB thinks of my play. If I've got the 56 in the BB and you're in the SB and play back at me with a check raise on the flop - I'm going to smooth call you (specifically Grant - specifically because I know that you are likely to remain aggressive and I like my position and hand on the turn against an aggressive player who thinks his holding is worth playing back at me on a 4-7-8 flop) most of the time. Unless we're tied, I'm got to figure that a $400 - $600 raise on the flop is coming from a hand that I dominate - most likely an overpair. You can't like a call from the BB which puts you in the unenviable position of being in the lead on the turn. How many cards can the turn bring that you are going to want to bet into a tricky player who called a sizable raise on the flop? I think you played it fine. If there was a way to lose less - I don't know what it was. Angel | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, grant pittman, 25. Dec 2003 13:16 | ||
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| Yes it was a tough spot to play from. I could have lost less if the BB cooperated on the flop and reraised me.....but given the player I doubt he would have made it that easy. The dirty scoundrel!!!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, noiseboy, 29. Dec 2003 11:01 | ||
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| true but once you have put up a show of force, and if he decides to smooth call, that should set off all sorts of alarm bells in your head. However that J on the turn is brutal because you have no way of knowing for certain whether you should just move in (when he has a set or two pair) or try to play slow (in case he has the nuts) and maybe even get away. The really tricky thing is that if you slow down, a lot of players will make a huge bet to try to push you out even if they have little or nothing just because you showed weakness. So I'm not really sure there is a way out. There is one way I could get away. If there are a lot of bad players at the table that I'm planning on breaking later, I might just decide to forego a difficult and close situation now, in order to profit from the weak players later. I wouldn't want to break myself and miss out on bets when I'm a huge favorite later. | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, Easy E, 26. Dec 2003 10:15 | ||
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| Grant, did you BELIEVE his "I'm down 13K" sob story? anyway, kudos to you for the paragraphs and such- MUCH easier to read, digest and separate your thoughts... you're not perfect yet, but I'm pulling for ya! "I checked and the BB, an experienced pot-limit player, also checked. The flop came 4-7-8 offsuit. I considered a bet into the $200 pot but decided to check and see who liked it. The BB lead out for $100 and was called by both limpers. Hmmmmmm. I didn't like what was going on in this hand. The BB was a tricky player with experience. " DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! A half-pot bet into two loosies, probably KNOWING at least one and possibly more were calling.... I wouldn't have liked that either. "Why was he only betting $100?" Would betting $200 (the max) have made any difference? "I thought it could only be for 2 reasons. Either he was trying to "pad the pot" so he could fire a big bet on the turn or he was very weak and was only investing a small amount in hopes of winning the pot now." From this and your later excitement about the J turn, I read that you assumed that he wouldn't be making a move here with a made hand. Why not? Remember who's in the hand in front of you... "I was swayed toward believing the first explanation. I thought this player knew that the limpers and me could hold any type of hand and that a weak bet would likely be a waste of money that would yield no real information about his opponents hand. I believed it was a "pad" bet but at the last second I said "....wait a minute Grant.....you have the limpers beat....if the BB bets the turn you can just fold" and so I decided to call the $100 bet. The pot was now at $600. " Why didn't you raise with the overpair? If anyone calls, you have a LOT more info and if anyone re-raises, you save some money later on. You got excited by the Jack on the turn, but should you have? who would you have expected to call you when the overcard fell, for big money, unless they had a chance to beat you or beat you already? Granted (hey, bad pun aler!) that a big pair might make a crying call... or would they, given the previous play? Just some stray thoughts- you'll have to evaluate for your situation and reads. I think I still would have leaned towards raising some amount preflop, by the way, unless it wouldn't have clarified the BB's hand at all. I'm assuming it wouldn't have clarified the loose limpers' hands. | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, Snorbolus, 26. Dec 2003 19:16 | ||
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| Grant, I don't much like your call pre-flop. You are giving the others a very cheap opportunity to outdraw you. I think that I would have bet the pot pre-flop. If I win a small pot right there OK. If they want to call that's fine too, I might flop top set and double up. I think that raising in your spot was even more important because the big blind was an experienced, tircky opponent. I would really have wanted to give him the chance to fold. When you flopped an overpair I think that another pot-bet would have been in order (assuming that you had raised before), to represent an overpair (which you have). Then if you get action after giving out all that heat you can be more confident that you are up against a real holding. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, Roy Cooke, 28. Dec 2003 15:48 | ||
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| Hey Grant....Thanks for the effort...And don't put yourself down you have been a great horse over the years...Not to mention a great friend also :-) Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 25. Dec 2003 10:19 grant pittman wrote: > I was in Vegas recently for the tournament at the Bellagio. Tournaments are not > my forte but I did manage to enter the $1500 no-limit event and did ok. Sorry > Mr. Cooke.....your horse ran out of gas. The tournament seemed to be a huge > success and this is great for poker. > > During the tournament the live games in the high limit area have their good > and bad moments. Overall, I thought the $80-$160 and $100-$200 games were > marginally good but sometimes they were just completely unplayable! It was at > these times when I wandered around looking for a better game. I watched a > pot-limit holdem game with a $25-$50 blind structure for a lap and liked what I > saw. > > I bought in for $5000 which was an average stack at the table and won a few > small pots before this hand came up. I was in the SB holding black jacks. Two > players limped in and the action was on me. I considered raising the pot in an > attempt to take the pot right there but reconsidered for two reasons. The first > is that I wasn't sure it would work. The 2 limpers were loose playing players > who both had a lot of chips and were more than willing to gamble. If I raised > now, I would build the pot and likely put myself in a tough spot after the flop > with the worst position. The second reason I went against raising was that it > advertises clearly what my likely holding is. These players were in tune enough > to know I should have a big pair and may take a shot at me if an ace flopped. > > > I checked and the BB, an experienced pot-limit player, also checked. The flop > came 4-7-8 offsuit. I considered a bet into the $200 pot but decided to check > and see who liked it. The BB lead out for $100 and was called by both limpers. > Hmmmmmm. I didn't like what was going on in this hand. The BB was a tricky > player with experience. Why was he only betting $100? I thought it could only be > for 2 reasons. Either he was trying to "pad the pot" so he could fire a big bet > on the turn or he was very weak and was only investing a small amount in hopes > of winning the pot now. I was swayed toward believing the first explanation. I > thought this player knew that the limpers and me could hold any type of hand and > that a weak bet would likely be a waste of money that would yield no real > information about his opponents hand. I believed it was a "pad" bet but at the > last second I said "....wait a minute Grant.....you have the limpers beat....if > the BB bets the turn you can just fold" and so I decided to call the $100 bet. > The pot was now at $600. > > The turn brought the jack of diamonds! Now I liked my position! I could beat > everything except a straight. I decided to check to see if any one of the > limpers came to life with this card. The BB surprised me and bet $500! Both > limpers folded. At this point in the hand I was very happy. In order for me to > be losing, the BB would have had to lead the flop with the nuts or lead with an > open ended draw (9,10) that just got home on me. I took a peek at his chips. He > had about $2300 left. I had no intention of folding my hand but I wondered how > much I could raise and still be called by a losing hand. > > My opponent was a strong player with lots of pot-limit experience however he > had been losing and mentioned to me that he was stuck 13 grand and was the > unluckiest player in the room. If he had 2 pair, I thought a big raise would > fold him but I wasn't sure. If he had a set I felt he would go broke with it. I > decided to make it $2000 flat making a $1500 raise. He quickly reraised me his > last $775. YUKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!! He obviously had the straight but I had > to call and hope to fill on the river. I missed and he showed me the 5,6 of > clubs. He had flopped the straight. > > He was trapping on the flop and I suspected it but wasn't quite sure. What do > you think? Should I have moved on the flop and released if I got any sort of > action? Let me know what you think. Happy holidays to all!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: A pot-limit blunder???, noiseboy, 29. Dec 2003 10:49 | ||
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| I think I would have made a pot sized bet at it on the flop, then he's likely to smooth call you or move in, either of which lets you off the hook. If he moves in, you drop those JJs right away because you know in an unraised pot it's really easy for someone to have at least two pair. If he smooth called you on the flop, even with the J falling on the turn, in an unraised pot, i'd be pretty wary of the str8 after a smooth call. Of course this is just Monday morning quarterbacking on my part, and I'd likely have got broke in that situation too! One more thing, when someone makes a somewhat weak bet like that on the flop in an unraised pot, I usually pick up the pot with a potsized bet right then. However, some of the time you have run into someone with a monster who is "selling his hand". At least after you have taken a stab at winning the pot, if he comes over or is still with you, you know you are in trouble and maybe are just through with the hand. Still that J on the turn makes it really rough on you because he could easily have a set or two pair. It may just fall into the "destined to get broke" category of situations. | ||
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