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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:10:31 PM PACIFIC |
 A4s from MP, Don Quixote, 24. Dec 2003 09:00 | ||
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| In response to mkpoker's post Monday re A5s in BB, checked my stats on all aces w/wheel cards suited. I am not that good a player that I would have played the A5s in BB in the situation he cited. I found one hand I played w/A4s from MP. Three limp to me. I limp, four more limp. Total of 8 see the flop. Flop comes AT2 rainbow. Four limp to me. I bet, and LMP, button and BB call. Turn brings ace, pairing the board giving me trips. I bet out, get one caller and a raiser. I just call fearing ace better kicker. Third player calls. River brings trey, and I check again. Check, bet, call, call. Raiser has AATT, other caller has AAJJ. My trips drag the pot. I fear I played weak/passive after the turn raise. Should I have reraised? I think I should have, and then if he had capped, I could have check/called the river. If he hadnt capped, I think I could safely have bet the river. I would appreciate your insights and advice on this problem. It keeps coming up. Don Quixote | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, shorn, 24. Dec 2003 09:24 | ||
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| I like your call here. If you re-raise, 1 of two things will happen: everyone will fold and you win no more $$ or it will get capped and you may have to throw it away. Both of these are bad options. Instead, by calling you encouraged the bluffer to continue bluffing and you won more than you otherwise would have. Now obviously if on the river their is a bet and a raise then you have to consider letting it go, but I think in this case shutting down was the best play (especially multi-way). If you were heads up, then maybe 3-betting is the way to go, but with other callers I think you played it perfectly: lose the same as if you three-bet if you are behind (and get to see the showdown), or win more by encouraging others to call behind you. | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, mkpoker, 24. Dec 2003 11:25 | ||
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| A couple of thoughts for you here: 1) I like your limp pre-flop. You've got limpers in front, which gives good volume. I would fold if you thought the players behind you were very aggressive and likely to raise. With Axs, you'd hate see the cutoff raise and button reraise and then come back to you for 2 more bets. But if they played passively-to-normal, I'd limp just as you did. 2) The key feature about this hand is the number of players (8!). With this many players, it's virtually a sure thing this hand is headed for a showdown (in the hand I played earlier, with two callers, I thought I might take the pot earlier). But a showdown hand is fine with you, because your hand has nut potential. However, with so many players, you must assume someone holds a better ace. So your course of action is clear: hit a flush, flush draw, 2-pair, some bizzare miracle flop, or get outta town. 3) The flop comes A-high and 4 early limpers check?!?! You must be thinking, WTF were these guys limping with! Still, I don't know that I would have bet the flop. But when you bet and it isn't raised (I thought a check-raise was a distinct possibility), you've got to wonder if you've caught a miracle and you're actually ahead here. Also, you didn't say if your suit matched the rainbow flop at all (giving you a backdoor nut-flush draw). If so, it adds a tiny bit of value. 4) When the 2nd ace hits the board, it's increasingly likely your opponents don't have an ace...you may have really lucked out here. After all, there's only 1 ace unaccounted-for in the deck! I like your betting out. But that raise must have hit you like a ton of bricks. Now you must figure that you're behind to a better ace, who waited to pop you until the turn. Raising is out of the question, but you MUST call. 5) Why must you call? You're getting 12:1 on the final call. Assuming you're behind to a higher ace, a 5 probably wins you the pot (3 outs) and any T or 2 (6 outs) will probably result in a split (identical aces-full). Also, if the raiser has a ace with a medium-low kicker (6-9), which is currently ahead, any high-card on the river (J-K) could also result in a split pot (you'd both have AAAxT). This is very possible, since there wasn't a pre-flop raise, and most players would raise PF with AK or AQ. So in your shoes, I'd be calling HOPING to split the pot, with a very small chance that I might win it outright if the raiser was bluffing or raising with hand less valuable than trip A's (which it turns out he was!) 6) The river card doesn't help you, and probably doesn't help anyone. You must figure you're behind at this point and a bluff certainly won't be successful. Checking is your only course of action. If bet into, I'd probably make a crying call, but would fully expect to lose. Bottom line: I think you played this well...don't know that I would have bet the flop into such a large field, but I probably would have called a single bet, especially if I had a backdoor draw. | ||
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| Use AXs instead of Axs, Harold Pierce, Jr., 26. Dec 2003 06:23 | ||
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| If capital letters and large numbers are used to indicate specific cards, The "X" instead of "x" should be used to indicate a variable card choice. As Spock often said. "Not logical, Captain". MouseEars | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, Don Quixote, 28. Dec 2003 09:43 | ||
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| Thanks shorn, mkpoker, rdale for your thoughts. You guys think at a higher level then I do, and you have made me think much about this particular type of problem. Come on, Harold (mouse ears) Pierce, if Ax is good enough for Sklansky, it is good enough for me :-) I didnt have a back door flush draw, but your point is well taken. My reasoning in raising the flop was that if someone had a stronger ace than mine that they might raise; and if they did raise, I could get out. Would folding then be correct? Also, I had hoped that my betting out on the flop would convince a few that I wasnt worried about a stronger ace and if they didnt have a big kicker, they would fold their weak ace. The second ace coming on the turn doesnt seem to change things as far as the strength of an opponent's ace, but it does make only the one ace unaccounted for. Oh, I forgot to mention that this was at Party .50/1.; hence, the number of limpers in the hand. The limpers could have had any kind of junk. Anyway, guys, thanks a million. Don Quixote on 24. Dec 2003 11:25 mkpoker wrote: > A couple of thoughts for you here: > > 1) I like your limp pre-flop. You've got limpers in front, which gives good > volume. I would fold if you thought the players behind you were very aggressive and > likely to raise. With Axs, you'd hate see the cutoff raise and button reraise and > then come back to you for 2 more bets. But if they played passively-to-normal, I'd > limp just as you did. > > 2) The key feature about this hand is the number of players (8!). With this many > players, it's virtually a sure thing this hand is headed for a showdown (in the hand > I played earlier, with two callers, I thought I might take the pot earlier). But a > showdown hand is fine with you, because your hand has nut potential. However, with > so many players, you must assume someone holds a better ace. So your course of > action is clear: hit a flush, flush draw, 2-pair, some bizzare miracle flop, or get > outta town. > > 3) The flop comes A-high and 4 early limpers check?!?! You must be thinking, WTF > were these guys limping with! Still, I don't know that I would have bet the flop. > But when you bet and it isn't raised (I thought a check-raise was a distinct > possibility), you've got to wonder if you've caught a miracle and you're actually > ahead here. Also, you didn't say if your suit matched the rainbow flop at all > (giving you a backdoor nut-flush draw). If so, it adds a tiny bit of value. > > 4) When the 2nd ace hits the board, it's increasingly likely your opponents don't > have an ace...you may have really lucked out here. After all, there's only 1 ace > unaccounted-for in the deck! I like your betting out. But that raise must have hit > you like a ton of bricks. Now you must figure that you're behind to a better ace, > who waited to pop you until the turn. Raising is out of the question, but you MUST > call. > > 5) Why must you call? You're getting 12:1 on the final call. Assuming you're > behind to a higher ace, a 5 probably wins you the pot (3 outs) and any T or 2 (6 > outs) will probably result in a split (identical aces-full). Also, if the raiser has > a ace with a medium-low kicker (6-9), which is currently ahead, any high-card on the > river (J-K) could also result in a split pot (you'd both have AAAxT). This is very > possible, since there wasn't a pre-flop raise, and most players would raise PF with > AK or AQ. So in your shoes, I'd be calling HOPING to split the pot, with a very > small chance that I might win it outright if the raiser was bluffing or raising with > hand less valuable than trip A's (which it turns out he was!) > > 6) The river card doesn't help you, and probably doesn't help anyone. You must > figure you're behind at this point and a bluff certainly won't be successful. > Checking is your only course of action. If bet into, I'd probably make a crying > call, but would fully expect to lose. > > Bottom line: I think you played this well...don't know that I would have bet the > flop into such a large field, but I probably would have called a single bet, > especially if I had a backdoor draw. | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, Harold Pierce, Jr., 28. Dec 2003 15:38 | ||
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| "The mark of a professional is close attention to detail". When I see tiny little mistakes such as Axs, it tells me that David the Devine One is not as sharp as he makes himself out to be. If he is such a hot-shot poker player, he be raking in the really big bucks in tournaments. "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach and write books." He and a number of poker book writers figured out a long time ago, that they don't have what it takes to be big money players, like Doyle Brunson, but did figure out that they could make a big pile of money writing books and selling them to the WSOP championship-round wannabes. Sklansky is like a univ prof, you know, one the egomaniacs that drinks freshly-squeezed EgoJuice and eats EgoFlakes and EgoWaffles for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and midnight snacks. I'll send you my new pre-flop decision lookup tables for low limit Texas Hold'em. as well as the PFA tables for stud 435, trad stud and lowball. -=-MousEars | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, Flakes, 28. Dec 2003 16:23 | ||
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| The mark of a professional "PAYS" close attention to detail. You wrote, "The mark of a professional is close attention to detail." ...Just thought I would point that out to you :^)!! Flakes | ||
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| Re: A4s from MP, rdale, 28. Dec 2003 03:08 | ||
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| the raise on the turn raises warning bells of a set not a better kicker on an A, I like slowplaying a set until the turn on a rainbow board with an A up top and someone betting the hand for me. There are three Aces right there, sure someone can have it, but it I usually doubt it. A reraise here may get rid of the other customers then again lots of people stick around for a big pot in the lower limit games with second pair and worse, and unless the raiser is hyper aggressive he isn't going to cap it with less than a set that just made a boat. I would probably play back here, especially in some of the loose aggressive games I've been playing lately, and if he calls the other raise bet the river, if he caps the turn make a crying call. But either way I wouldn't be worried about a better kicker on the A but the boat. | ||
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