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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:38:49 PM PACIFIC |
 Poker thinking exercise, Schuster, 24. Dec 2003 01:46 | ||
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| A friend and I sat down tonight to engage in some of our favorite pastime tonight - heads up poker. We're both on par for skill, so we usually try to play a variety of games to try to learn from each other and get some experience. Tonight we were playing triple draw A-5 lowball with a joker for a while when we wondered what it would like to play triple draw for high with the joker (bug). For anyone who doesn't know, the bug can be used as an ace or to complete straights and flushes. It's a semi wild card, but not completely. There's only one in the deck. Well, being the adventurous fellows that we are, we gave it a shot. I have personally never heard of anyone playing triple draw for high, but it might be done somewhere. We structured the game with the standard small and big blinds, with the first 2 rounds being the small bet and the second 2 rounds being the big bet. Let me tell you, if you've ever wanted to get some practice with a lot of "it depends" situations and really exercise your poker mind, give this game a try sometime with your buddies. We were both having a great time and played it much longer than we play most games before switching. You will definately feel the power of position as well. For example, you're holding As Ks 9s 7s Ac. You drew to your flush on the last card but happened to pick up the pair of aces instead. Your opponent checks and calls after the second draw and then picks up one. You stand pat of course. Your opponent isn't going to bet into a pat hand unless he has a darn good one himself, and if he busts his draw, your aces will obviously stand up. Drawing one will only make you more money when you both make your draw, and yours is better, but stands to lose you money anytime you miss your draw but his busted draw turns out to be better than yours. Now say you have the same hand but you're first to act before the last draw. Now you have much less information about how the hand will play out, and you can't be afforded the luxury of winning when your opponent busts since he may already have you beat. Of course, this is a simplified example because you could probably guess from the action on previous streets what your opponent might be holding, but the point remains. Position is very key in this game due to the three draws and you will definately notice it. I'll leave you with a very interesting hand that went down towards the end of the night. I hold 23345 on the button and raise. A raise often stole the blinds because we were both a little timid on starting hands due to inexperience. Also, we both agreed that it seemed like 5 card hands were winning a lot of the pots, so that even drawing 3 to a pair of queens or jacks wasn't a great idea. It was hard to make trips, and they could still lose. Nothing worse than drawing dead and getting there. None the less, we both kinda realized that pat trips were pretty decent to start with even though the full house is still a long shot. Trips held up on their own often enough to make it worthwhile. Anyway, back to the hand. I opened for the raise and to my surprise he reraised me. At this point, I knew he either had trips or a very good draw. If he had trips, I had odds to draw to my straight. If I made my straight and he stood pat, I could get away from my hand pretty easily since he's probably got a better hand than mine. We both tended to play our hands in a straightforward manner, almost a bit of an unspoken agreement so that we could get used to the dynamics of the game. So I called the raise and to my dismay he took one card. So he's on a good draw and I'm looking at 23345, with nothing even as much as a three flush. How many would you draw and why? Lee | ||
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| Re: Poker thinking exercise, shorn, 24. Dec 2003 05:16 | ||
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| I would stand pat and bet out my hand again. As you state, you were both playing pretty straightforwardly, so my guess is that it is more likely that he is on a str8 draw or flush draw than trips. If he calls or raises you, then you need to adjust (fold if he raises). If you draw one card, he might try to bluff you out if he misses. By standing pat and betting, you give yourself a chance to win the pot without improving. | ||
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| Re: Poker thinking exercise, Schuster, 24. Dec 2003 11:25 | ||
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| I agree that he's much more likely to be on a straight or flush draw, but I knew it was bigger than just that. He would have just called with a normal flush draw and definately a normal straight draw. I figured him for something like A-bug-X-X suited for the aces and a 4 flush, or a straight flush draw somewhere probably containing the bug. If that's the case, I'm a huge underdog by the showdown if I stand pat, and I'll be committed to running the bluff the whole way through the hand. Even if I make my draw and he misses on the first draw, he's still going to be the favorite with 2 cards to come and he'll win more money when he makes the draw, since I have grossly negative implied odds. Standing pat isn't a bad idea, but the way it had played out so far, I figured I would need to show the best hand at the showdown since he will be drawing the whole way with a hand like that. Then I have to figure out if I want to draw to my straight and continue with the hand, or essentially surrender. I'll wait a few more replies before posting what I did. Lee | ||
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| Re: Poker thinking exercise, Flakes, 24. Dec 2003 11:49 | ||
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| Interesting...using the joker (the bug) card is like Pai-gow, in which it is used as an Ace, or to complete a straight or flush hand. In this situation, where you will be drawing 3 times, it is likely that your friend was dealt the bug card, though not definite. If you say that the two of you were playing very straightfoward, then I think it is less probable that he would reraise you if he was just on a drawing hand, unless he held three cards that were coordinated to a straight flush AND, that he also was dealt the joker. He also (and also probable) could be sitting on two big pair, w/ or w/out the joker. I would muck your hand before the draw as I don't see it improving to anything that I would want to get myself trapped up in. Lowball, yes. High? No. Flakes | ||
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| Re: Poker thinking exercise, mroban, 24. Dec 2003 14:47 | ||
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| I have very little experience playing triple draw, but my feeling is to take no cards and go for a cold bluff. I think you said you had position here. I might pop him with a raise or bet to him if he checks and see if he calls and draws again. He is probably drawing to a better flush or straight. If it gets busted your low pair might (however unlikely) hold up. As long as he is drawing you can represent a made hand and reraise. Either that or I would fold. I don't think I would try to outdraw him. Seems to me the best way to try to win that hand. Would love to hear the "correct" answer from anyone with actual experience in this game. | ||
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| Re: Four Jokers Really Boosts PFA, Harold Pierce, Jr., 26. Dec 2003 06:38 | ||
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| Mutiple draw game suck because the number of hands played per hour is greatly reduced. If you want more action im high draw use 4 Bugs or even better 4 Jokers. MouseEars | ||
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| Re: Poker thinking exercise - results, Schuster, 29. Dec 2003 11:20 | ||
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| After he drew 1, I knew his draw was much better than mine, and would likely still win even if I made mine. The rough estimate in my head at the time was a little better than 2 to 1 to get there, even better for him if I decided to stand pat and run the bluff the whole way. So I looked at my hand and thought about what I could draw to that was better than the 6 high straight and kinda realized there was nothing. I mucked the whole thing and took 5 new cards. I'm a longshot to pick up anything worth playing, but I figured that's better than putting money in the pot as a longshot. Was that the best play? Probably not. But I don't think it was the worst either. At least I know right away if I can continue with the hand rather than dumping money in for 3 more rounds. I still think triple draw for high is a great thinking game. Definately give it a shot if you're up to the challenge sometime. Lee | ||
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