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Server Time: 11/20/2008 10:09:24 PM PACIFIC |
 Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, mroban, 23. Dec 2003 11:25 | ||
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| My friend just recently played in a live NL tourney that I couldn't attend. I am glad because the rules are wacky. $200 buy-in, with the winner paid off $10,000 (with the ridiculous stipulation that it is for a seat in the WSOP next year and the winner cannot take the cash only option - absurd). The rest of the money trickled to a few spots (only 60 players). Each player was also only given $200 in chips. The blinds started at $2-4 and went up every half and hour (next to $5-10 and then $10-20, so on). Our hero is an excellent poker player who is very inexperienced in both NL and tournament play. While the blinds were at $2-4 our hero gets dealt AsJh in MP. 3 players limped in front of him, he made it $12 to go and got called by one player behind him and the three limpers. The blinds folded. It bears mentioning that all 4 other players in the hand were read as total fish by our hero at this point and had been playing every hand and making bad plays. The flop comes down AhKhTh. The first two limpers check, the third limper bet out $20. Our hero just calls with top pair and second best flush draw and the player behind him flat calls. Without revealing the ending yet, I told him that he should have raised here. That if the bettor to his right was a total fish as he had read him, he would just have likely limped in with Ax or Kx (and called a small raise) as anything and probably would have raised with AK or AQ or KT or better. Certainly he could not be holding KK or AA. A raise had the best chance of isolating this player and a reraise would indicate he was beat and could get away from the hand. I also told him that folding was the second best option and calling was far and away the worst option here as it gave all the players behind him the correct odds to call with basically any flush or straight draw (so the players holding the Qh or any pair with a straight draw the right odds to call). What are your thoughts? I will reveal the outcome after a few responses. | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, redsoxasu, 23. Dec 2003 12:37 | ||
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| I think raising (or even all-in depending on chip status) is automatic when you're drawing to the Nut straight, 2nd best flush, Royal flush and with top pair/good kicker. allowing others to stay in with medicore hands increases the chance you will be outdrawn. | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, MozMan, 23. Dec 2003 15:40 | ||
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| You don't say how many chips our hero had at this point, and this is an important factor. I do agree, though, that a flat call is probably the worst way to go here. If our hero is super-deep, has everybody dwarfed, chip-wise, then put them all on a decision for the cab-fare. Push all-in and make them think about the possibility of busting out in 30 seconds. Better yet, make it obvious that he has control: bet enough to put them all all-in without putting up your whole stack. That says, "You gotta risk it if you want to see the next card, but I will be here on the next hand no matter what." If our hero is average stack or better, even a slight lead, then fold off and let the fish beat each other up for a while. If our hero has less than ten times the BB at this stage, then push all-in and hope to double up. -Moz -"I'm jealous of girls, because they get to wear dresses." -"One problem at a time, son." | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, mdroban, 23. Dec 2003 17:05 | ||
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| Moz: Great question, forgot to add that. It was toward the beginning and I believe this was the first hand he actually played. So assuming he played once in the blinds, he had about T192 left (they started with T200). Well, since you both agree with me here is what happend: The player behind him flat called and the other limpers called as well!! The turn card came the 8h which gives our hero the second best flush. The betting goes (unbelievably given the interest on the flop) check, check, check so he bets $50 and gets flat called by the player behind him. The two first limpers fold and the third limper (flop bettor) calls. In his inexperience, our hero thought he had the best hand at this point because of the calls. I told him "no", the calls would have scared the heck out of me and I would have shut it down at that point figuring someone made the nut flush with the Qh and was slowplaying. The river was a blank and no help to anyone. Check, our hero bets another $50 and gets called again behind him and the first player folds. The player behind him was holding Qh4x for the nut flush. Unbelievably, this guy didnt put in a raise on the river (which our hero would have folded but still unbelievable nonetheless). The limper who bet the flop didn't show his cards but didn't seem upset that he folded. So our hero could have put in a $50 raise on the flop and possibly won the hand (or got reraised or called and then shut it down) so he could have won on the flop with a raise or at least got heads up against a player he had beat all the way. Perhaps the player behind him would have called anyway but that isn't the point. The call on the flop gave that player the correct odds to call there and draw to the flush (whether that player was considering the odds or not is irrelevant - our hero made it correct to make the call rather than incorrect). In my opinion (shared by both posters) the call was an absolutely horrendous play. I suggested (as you did Moz) that if you were worried that a raise was too risky, then folding was a much better option than calling. | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, shorn, 24. Dec 2003 04:48 | ||
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| My first thought is that he should have mucked pre-flop with AJo. I hate that hand in NL (especially tourny's) unless I am first in and can raise to try and steal. Just too many ways to lose with it. But, I agree with you on the play on the flop. Calling is a complete waste of time as he could already be behind or someone with the Qh could be lurking to his left. If he is going to continue to play, then he must raise to try and isolate or at least give bad odds to the first two limpers if they decide to draw. Then if re-raised, he can fold in good conscience. | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, SmallFeesh, 24. Dec 2003 05:35 | ||
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| well... the tourney was obviously a Super Satellite for a tourney.. not a traditional "tournament"... the structure you described is the norm... one or two players recieve seats... and a few other recieve cash... now about the hand i agree... the call is a little to weak there... the only 2 options are really to push or fold... and pushing is pretty much out od the question... he would himself be put all in... and be put all out by any flush.. straight... or set... or bigger ace or 2 pair... ALOT of hands that could have him crushed! way to early to go all out! i would have folded with out thinking to much about it! | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, mroban, 24. Dec 2003 08:07 | ||
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| Thanks guys. Great responses. I am going to forward these to our hero. | ||
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| Re: Live NL Tourney Play - Please critique this play, ILLZ, 30. Dec 2003 10:38 | ||
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| I agree with whoever said they didn't like the AJo. With players left to act behind you, and limpers in front, it's really a weak hand unless you flop amazing to it. The raise is only going to inctice stronger hands than the AJ into the pot. Best option in my opinion is to just toss it in the muck, second best option would be to try to limp and draw fantastic to it (2 pair, a set, a nut flush draw, or the nut straight with a mixed suite flop). Raising here is, I think, the worst play of all the options... | ||
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