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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:41:47 PM PACIFIC |
 Axs from BB...Comments Please, mkpoker, 22. Dec 2003 19:00 | ||
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| Two questions come to mind from this hand. Should I have called pre-flop? And should I have made a crying call at the river? You tell me. We're at 3/6 HE online. This is a very good game with some shamefully bad loose-passive players. One of the loose-passives UTG limps. MP raises. I don't have a read on MP. She hasn't played many hands, which could mean she plays tight, or she's just having a bad run of cards. All fold to me and my Ac5c. Raise, call, and fold are all viable options. Raising might drive out the bad player, which I don't want. A 3-bet is almost automatic if I think MP is stealing, but I doubt it given the presence of a limper. It's also possible she's raising light to isolate herself against the limper. I call. Comments? Flop comes JsTcAs--giving me top pair, weak kicker and backdoor nut flush draw. I bet out and get two calls. I figure with two-pair or top-pair/good kicker, MP would have raised. What could she have? Maybe KK, A9, KT? The turn comes 4c, giving me the nut flush draw. "Flush" with outs, I bet. UTG calls. MP now raises. I figure, no chance she's raising on a draw, since I've got the nut flush draw. I'm now guessing she's probably on two-pair and waited until the turn to pop me. But I've got a good draw, so I call of course. UTG folds and we're heads up. The river is a blank. I check, she bets, I fold, despite the 10ish BBs in the pot. I'll usually make crying calls with top pair (or even worse). But here, the fact that 1) the player wasn't loose and 2) she raised me on the turn with what didn't look like a semi-bluff persuaded me otherwise. What do you think? Wimpy poker? | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, grant pittman, 22. Dec 2003 20:21 | ||
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| Mkpoker I like the decisions you made here. If she can raise you on the turn and bet the river with less than an ace she deserves the pot. That's brave poker to say the least! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, Ian J, 22. Dec 2003 20:27 | ||
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| I think you played the hand just fine. However, after reading the post I got curious. Did MP have KQ? Because that's the only hand I could think to put her on given the play of the hand. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, mkpoker, 22. Dec 2003 21:19 | ||
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| Alas we'll never know...she didn't show her uncalled hand. However, I'd doubt she held KQ, for a flopped broadway straight. With the two-flush on the board (in spades), she should raise, charging the maximum for spade draws that might beat her. I suppose it's possible she'd slowplay the flop with KsQs, giving her the nut flush draw as well as the made straight, but I'd doubt KQo. I'd guess she held AJo for two-pair, and once the turn appeared non-threatening, she let loose. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, mroban, 23. Dec 2003 17:45 | ||
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| mk: After the flop I wouldn't have done anything different. Seemed like she was slowplaying a monster on the flop (at least 2 pair) and popped you on the turn when the second flush card hit the board. I rarely call a raise preflop (especially with only 1 limper in) with Axs. If there were 3 or more callers I would probably have called. I like the bet on the flop and you have to bet the 4 flush with top pair. You certainly are calling another bet to see the river card. But after you didnt make the flush, I think folding on the river was the right play (even though I too would have been tempted to make the crying call). Its funny, I had a similar hand in a NL game last night and I made the crying call at the end. This player had called my bet on the flop and the two flush hit. I had top pair with a K high flush draw (was playing KTs in the BB). He bet the four flush on the turn and got raised (about $10). I called reluctantly and thought it was an awful play. The river was a blank and he bets another $10. This guy was a terrible player and I just couldn't imagine what he was holding. Again, reluctantly I called and it turned out he was holding 84s. He called my bet on the flop with bottom pair and no kicker and then raised with that garbage on the turn. Unreal!! I made a lousy play admittedly, but only because I had read him as a terrible player (and I had a huge stack at that point had built my stack from $50 to $165). So I also felt like playing a bit loose. But his bet was also suspiciously low (he would have gone all in with the nuts I think). Anyway, I guess my point is that you couldn't read her as a fish and in fact, she was playing pretty tight. So figuring you were beat was most likely correct. Cant imagine what you could have beaten here. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, Schuster, 22. Dec 2003 22:16 | ||
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| It sounds to me like she flopped at least two pair, more likely a set, and wanted to see the turn before she jammed the pot. I think you played it very well. Lee | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, MozMan, 22. Dec 2003 23:06 | ||
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| Hey mk- I don't think you could have done anything differently. I'd bet she was on JJ and was confident in her set because you did not re-raise before the flop. She was waiting for bigger bets to pop you for the extra chips, and was hoping maybe you'd catch two pair and really pay off. This raise plays the dual-purpose of testing you for KQ, if you reraise the turn, she probably lets go, or just calls hoping to fill up. -Moz -"I'm jealous of girls, because they get to wear dresses." -"One problem at a time, son." | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, shorn, 23. Dec 2003 05:13 | ||
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| The only thing I don't like is your bet on the flop. You have top pair sure, but you are asking to pay two bets to see the turn instead of one. If I am the MP player, I raise you no matter what I have as the board is coordinated enough for me to steal on the turn if any str8, flush, or pair card comes on the turn. Again, I think this is a spot where you might check and call and then hope you hit a flush card on the turn or another Ace. I might have also semi-bluff checkraised the turn when my flush card came. This can be a very confusing play at times to players and it represents that YOU may have been the one to flop the str8 and were slowplaying it. Obviously, this introduces variance into your results, but in the right spot it can work. Good fold on the river. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, mkpoker, 23. Dec 2003 10:08 | ||
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| on 23. Dec 2003 05:13 shorn wrote: > The only thing I don't like is your bet on the flop. You have top pair sure, but you > are asking to pay two bets to see the turn instead of one. If I am the MP player, I > raise you no matter what I have as the board is coordinated enough for me to steal on > the turn if any str8, flush, or pair card comes on the turn. Again, I think this is > a spot where you might check and call and then hope you hit a flush card on the turn > or another Ace. > I thought about this, but with only two opponents, I bet thinking I might win the pot if no one else had an ace, or they had only a low ace, like A9 or A8 (this is a remote chance, to be sure). Also, if the sequence came: I bet, UTG raises, MP re-reraises, I'd fold rather than call two additional bets cold. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, shorn, 23. Dec 2003 10:39 | ||
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| Fair enough, but you had a acaller and then a raiser behind him making it much more likely that the raiser has a Ace in his hand. Even if he doesn't, he might raise to try and isolate so you end up paying more than you want. If there were just two limpers and no PF raise, then definitely a bet is in order. I just think with a raiser, you are better off checking and calling, especially since you don't have position. | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, Don Quixote, 23. Dec 2003 09:51 | ||
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| No wonder I don't win any more than I do. I am too tight according to this post and responses. Axs preflop with only two players doesnt give me pot odds to call. The way I see it is that you have 5:1 on your call, but are not odds of making a flush longer than that? Should one call in this situation if both players had limped? Thank you very much. Don Quixote on 22. Dec 2003 19:00 mkpoker wrote: > Two questions come to mind from this hand. Should I have called pre-flop? And > should I have made a crying call at the river? You tell me. We're at 3/6 HE > online. This is a very good game with some shamefully bad loose-passive > players. > > One of the loose-passives UTG limps. MP raises. I don't have a read on MP. > She hasn't played many hands, which could mean she plays tight, or she's just > having a bad run of cards. All fold to me and my Ac5c. > > Raise, call, and fold are all viable options. Raising might drive out the bad > player, which I don't want. A 3-bet is almost automatic if I think MP is > stealing, but I doubt it given the presence of a limper. It's also possible > she's raising light to isolate herself against the limper. I call. Comments? > > Flop comes JsTcAs--giving me top pair, weak kicker and backdoor nut flush draw. > I bet out and get two calls. I figure with two-pair or top-pair/good kicker, > MP would have raised. What could she have? Maybe KK, A9, KT? > > The turn comes 4c, giving me the nut flush draw. "Flush" with outs, I bet. > UTG calls. MP now raises. I figure, no chance she's raising on a draw, since > I've got the nut flush draw. I'm now guessing she's probably on two-pair and > waited until the turn to pop me. But I've got a good draw, so I call of course. > UTG folds and we're heads up. > > The river is a blank. I check, she bets, I fold, despite the 10ish BBs in the > pot. I'll usually make crying calls with top pair (or even worse). But here, > the fact that 1) the player wasn't loose and 2) she raised me on the turn with > what didn't look like a semi-bluff persuaded me otherwise. What do you think? > Wimpy poker? | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, mkpoker, 23. Dec 2003 10:17 | ||
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| Yes, the odds of making a flush are much longer than 5:1, but there are other ways I can win this hand. I have a 4 percent chance of flopping 2-pair, a 1.5 percent chance of flopping trips, a 1 percent chance of flopping a full house, and a very longshot chance of hitting a wheel straight. All of these hands stand an excellent chance of holding up, if I hit. Plus, with so few opponents, I might be able to win the pot through semi-bluffs on either a flush or straight draw. Add all these factors to the obvious flush possibilities, and I think it adds up to a call pre-flop (but only because I'm already 1/2 way in on the BB--no way I'd call a raise cold from any other position with so few opponents). | ||
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| Re: Axs from BB...Comments Please, mroban, 23. Dec 2003 17:49 | ||
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| MK: Somehow missed the part that you were in the BB. That makes sense now. I think we agree that you fold this hand in any other position (including the SB). I would have called in the BB too. I think I would have played this hand exactly the same way. | ||
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