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Server Time: 11/20/2008 10:43:07 PM PACIFIC |
 How far off am I...., Brian Starr, 22. Dec 2003 15:30 | ||
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| I want to know if my thinking on this hand is anywhere close to correct. Its late at night, I'm playing in a $3/6 hold em game at my local B&M. The game is extremely soft, I have never seen any of these players here before and although I am not a great player, I think I may be the best at the table. One thing to remember when reading the analysis of the hand in question: I should have an extremely tight table image (if anyone is paying attention) as I've only played 3 hands in the last 4 times around the table-KK, AQs and KQo in my BB. All three were shown down at the river for top pair and all were good. Here is the hand: I'm in the BB in seat 1, I have K3 of diamonds, seat 3 is extremely loose and passive, plays a lot of hands, likes to see it to the river, but usually respects raises seat 5 is extremely weak tight, barely plays anything, easily bluffed out, I've seen him fold away $150 in the last hour seat 6 is loose-aggressive, raises any A and a lot of other cards preflop, and will continue bluffing thru river with nothing seats 3 and 5 limp, seat 6 raises, the SB calls and I decide to see the flop (maybe this was my first mistake, I'm never sure when to defend my BB) Flop: 3,4,9 rainbow I don't have a very big piece, but I'm pretty sure this flop missed everyone else as well. I consider betting out to see where I stand, but I figure that won't help since seat 6 will raise even if he has nothing, so I come up with a new plan of action which follows: I check, seat 3 checks, seat 5 looks like he is about to bet, but at the last second he takes it back and checks (of course he checked, I haven't seen him bet a flop yet) aggressive player in seat 6 bets, the sb folds, I RAISE, hoping to get heads up with seat 6. Everyone calls. Turn: 8, still rainbow Since my move on the flop failed miserably, I check, planning on folding, however seats 3 and 5 check again, seat 6 bets again and I get some crazy idea in my head that another check raise would signal enormous strength, so I raise again. Seat 3 folds, seat 5 folds EXTREMELY RELUCTANTLY, and seat 6 calls. River: Q I think about betting, but I figure there is no way that I can get him to lay down a better hand, and I don't want to be trapped for two more bets if he hit his Q. I check, he check and turns over pocket 7s. OUCH, I think he would have folded if I had bet the river. Post hand analysis: Seat 5 later said he had a 9 ( must have been A9s, cant think of another hand with a 9 he would play, and I dont think he was lying as he looked pissed off), so I think my play was correct, in that it would work to isolate me nearly every time. However, is my pair of threes going to be a winner enough of the time against the aggressor? I dont know. I do know seats 5 and 6 badly misplayed this hand, I'm still not sure if I did. Questions: Should I have folded preflop? Would my checkraise play have worked at a higer level (remember my table image)? And should I have fired once more on the river? Sorry for the long post, but this hand is troubling me. Thanks in advance for the informative replies! | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., Boftx, 22. Dec 2003 16:14 | ||
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| Without regard to whether you should have folded pre-flop, I think a bet on the river was mandatory. You never gave seat 6 a chance to fold to your supposed better hand. You can't bluff by checking. Jim | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., grant pittman, 22. Dec 2003 16:47 | ||
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| Brian I like this post. It gives us a chance to look at decision making at several different points during the play of a hand. I know there will be debate whether your call preflop was proper or not. From the BB you are getting 9-1 on your call with a suited K3. I think the key to deciding whether to play a marginal holding out of position in poker lies in THE INDIVIDUAL PLAYER'S ability to make proper decisions after the flop. When the flop came 9-4-3 offsuit, you checked and noticed one opponent wanted to bet but held off. The preflop raiser bet and you raised. Hmmmmm. This seems like you disregarded the tell you picked up on from the weak opponent. You are kinda asking for bad things to happen when you ignore your instincts in poker. I think a call on the flop is in order ONLY because you stated your other opponents were passive and easy to read. If they were tricky aggressive opponents I would fold the flop since I don't want to get stuck for multiple bets with this piece of cheese hand. You are getting the right price to gamble for one bet. By the way, I like the check raise on the flop if you hadn't noticed the other player's interest in the hand. After check raising the flop and being called by all opponents, your decision to check raise the turn is not a good one. Even if you believe you can fold the weaker players behind you, the aggressive player should have an overpair and just won't lay it down. It turned out he had an underpair....and he still called!!!! This should emphasize your error to you. That being said, a call on the turn is in order. I agree that you are beat at this point but the pot is laying you 10-1 on your call and the tecture of your hand is unique. I would believe that a 3 or king should win you the pot enough times to justify your call. There are 5 cards for you to hit out of 47 or about 8 1/2 to 1 against. The pot is laying 10-1 presently and will likely get bigger with calls in behind you. The implied odds are great here. You stepped out on a limb with this hand and that is ok in poker. This may emphasize to you the importance of trusting what you see in the way of tells at the table. You could have played the hand better and less expensively but what the hell.......it's the season for giving!!! Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., Brian Starr, 22. Dec 2003 17:07 | ||
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| Thanks Grant, I know I played it weirdly (maybe I had been at the table too long, but we'll leave that for another time) and I want to emphasize that in no way does this hand indicate my normal playing style. I too am really still trying to understand my thinking here. I agree Grant that the raise on the turn was probably wrong, however just to play the devil's advocate, if I had just called he would have bet the river as well, is it then correct to call again in case my 3s are good? In that case it costs the same amount of bets to see his cards. If the K or 3 does come and I raised, well then I got an extra bet in. (Not sure if this is correct, just that your saying a call was correct got me thinking). Anyways to conclude my rambling, thanks a lot for the post, your posts are always extremely informative. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., grant pittman, 22. Dec 2003 20:11 | ||
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| Brian I am suggesting that you call on the turn in an attempt to hit a king or 3 on the end. If the same opponent bets the river you can safely fold. Remember that 2 other opponents are in the hand that have position on you relative to the bettor. Since they both cold called your raise on the flop I would say it is safe to conclude that you are beat by several players in this hand if you don't improve on the end. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: How far off am I.... (long reply), Barry T, 23. Dec 2003 00:05 | ||
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| Hi. I agree with Grant this is an interesting and instructive post. First, when you call pre-flop wtih Kd3d, your plan is to hit a big flush draw. You are not hoping for a pair of threes. In general, my objective when I play a garbage hand in the blinds is to not lose a lot of money on dreams. I want to hit the flop twice. That means I want to hit KK, 33, K3 or dd. That's where my implied odds are coming from. When you miss the flop, you see an opportunity to creatively try to wrest the pot from the raiser. This is not a bad thought. Personally, I would not act on it, but it is not a bad idea. The problem is you will never know if you are ahead or behind, and unless you hit your hand a second time on the turn, you will be guessing your way through, out of position. Just because the guy raised does not mean he has nothing. OK, you raised. Fine. Your plan was to isolate AND IT FAILED. You have notw put 4 small bets into the pot with a poor hand that is still a pair of threes. (Clearly, your opinion that your opponents pay attention to how you have been playing was totally bogus, as it almost always is). Here you might be getting a price to check and call, putting in still more bets with your threes. But your play, while creative and daring (read foolhardy) is not in your best interests, considering how few outs you have if you are behind (y'know, sometimes when people keep betting it is because they have something). Hey, at least you stopped betting on the river,and had the satisfaction of changing the winner. The A9 played terribly, IMO (if indeed that is what he had...sometimes players lie). So you managed to lose eight small bets on a marginal hand that you might easly have passed on. I have done this myself a few times (with success about equal to yours), Your flexibilty and creative thinking are very good tools. Do not put them away. But save them for better opportunities, and, when your plan fails, do not comtimue to rescue it. BarryT | ||
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| Re: How far off am I.... (long reply), shorn, 23. Dec 2003 05:06 | ||
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| Barry- Great post and well thought out as always. Steve | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., shorn, 23. Dec 2003 05:02 | ||
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| Personally, I don't like the preflop call simply because of the presence in the hand of Seat #6. You are looking to flop big to this hand (two pair, trips, or flush draw), and the combined chances of that are roughly 15%, so you would need 6.5 to 1 to call. You are getting this but what I don't like is your implied odds when you do flop your flush draw. Seat #6 is going to make you pay a bundle to get there, so in actuality, your current pot odds to call the flop aren't as good. But, you call and hit a pair. At this point, I think the only possible strategy on the flop is to check and call 1 bet as you are almost certain to be good if you hit your 5-outer. The checkraise play is a waste of money to me here because it is highly likely that you are behind (based on the types of players you described, one of whom was about to bet) AND #6 might make it 3 bets so you would be committing a lot of chips on 3rd pair, not a good scenario. This is one of the few times where I think check/calling the flop may be correct (you will be getting at least 9-1 on your 5 outer, which is better than the 8-1 needed). Once the turn comes a blank, I think you have to check fold here. I guess the biggest issue I have with your play is that you know seat #6 to be loose aggressive "who will call/raise to the river with nothing" and yet you tried to play fancy with him and push him off his hand when you had basically nothing. This will just cost you a ton of money long run. | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., Mark, 23. Dec 2003 10:22 | ||
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| Hi Brian I agree with what the others in this thread have to say, and wanted to add one thing. At the $3-6 level, fancy plays like this one will only lose money. At the $10-20 and up levels, the players may have taken your check-raising to mean significant strength on your part and folded, but at the $3-6 level ( which i still occasionally play) this sort of play never works. When i play $3-6, all my profit comes from making hands and getting lots of calls. Even though you had good reads on all the players, you expected that they were paying attention to you AND were capable of making a good laydown. You expected them to consider what you have. This means they have to be thinking about the game, like you are. Typically at the $2-4/3-6 levels, most of the players came to the casino to get into some action and play lots of hands. They simply want to call, and this makes bluffing non-profitable. Mark | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., Jeremy, 27. Dec 2003 00:35 | ||
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| I agree with the others in this post. Trick plays are overrated in low limit games. I use check raises very sparingly at lower limits (ussually only when I flop 2 pair). Reason being.....not for the current hand but for future hands. People at lower limits are ussually there for recreation....to gamble.....by check raising the ones who actually notice what you've done may actually be inclined to tighten up on you. They may now be playing only to beat you because you tricked them. Also by check raising the turn in this hand I can almost hear the guy saying "oh well I've already gone this far ..might as well." I don't think there's anyway to win this pot without hitting your 2nd pair on the river. Keep in mind when playing low limits you want to keep the game loose and just be another face at the table. Most pots are protected so bluffing is almost always out of the question and the fact that you have been playing tight for the past few hours probably hasn't occured to maybe 2 or 3 other serious players at the table. Just my .02 Good luck Jeremy | ||
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| Re: How far off am I...., Brian Starr, 14. Jan 2004 01:11 | ||
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| Thanks everyone, I've been out of town for awhile, but it was great to come back and see all of the responses. I definitely agree that tricky plays dont work at lower levels and I dumped some money on this hand. However, I think the money was well spent as it taught me a lesson and caused me to think about my game. Although I have never played higher than 6/12, I plan to some day, so I will keep all my tricky plays in the back of my head for when i see you all in the big games! In the mean time I will stick to my tight, solid poker. Thanks again. | ||
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