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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:31:07 PM PACIFIC |
 QQ early on in SnGs, vest besterly, 20. Dec 2003 12:06 | ||
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| Sit down to a low buyin NL SnG, planning on doing my usual not-get-involved until level 4 strategy (even had a nice detective novel I was planning on reading for the first twenty minutes or so). Couldn't have been more happy when the first player to act on the first hand went all in (stealing the 30 chip blinds?) and I knew I had sat at the right table. Only 3 hands later (and about 3 all-ins that hadn't resulted in a knock out yet) I get dealt QQ in late position. One limper in early, one minimum raise behind him (which is the same as a limp at this table), and one call to my right. Now, I got no love for the ladies at this point in a SnG, but I smelled weakness all the way around. I make it 150 right out hoping to take the 100 or so chips on the table, or at least get it down to heads up. Blinds muck, early mucks, raiser shocks me by going all in with little hesitation, but not as shocking as when player to my right calls it with no hesitation at all. After congradulating myself for getting into another fine mess, I try to put together what to do. QQ is a dog to a three way pot, I know this terribly well. I felt sure that no one had AA, KK, or AK, since these hands would have warrented much larger raises at this table; but I'm still ruined if any A hits the board, and surely at least one of these guys is packin one. I figure my best hand at the moment was making me about a 50/50 shot of winning this pot. I've only recently started grasping and implementing that SnGs are about survival, not about winning pots. But I had been having a bad day on the tables so I did the wrong thing, I called. They flip over JJ and A5s. Not only does an A flop, but the river brings a J, giving hook-boy his set, and me the 3rd best hand not at all to my surprise. It was the first time I'd finished worse than 6th in about 20 SnGs. My question isn't whether I should have made the call (even though that 3,000 in chips would have easily coasted me into the $$$) because I knew I shouldn't have, but whether I should have played QQ at Level1 at all. Upon reflection, a smooth call to see the flop might have been better; flop a monster, or run for the hills. I've only recently started to possess the will to fold JJ and AKo in these early rounds- should I designate QQ into this same troubled hand catergory as well? How do you more successful SnG operators handle the hussies pre-Level4? | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, Unvme, 20. Dec 2003 12:19 | ||
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| I honestly dont think that you should fold this hand. You really want both of these people to call. It would seem obvious one of them was playing A-lowkicker and the other an average PP. So, you are basically putting them on a 5 card draw to triple up early in a tourney. Funny as it is that not only did one of the 5 cards hit, but 2 of 5 hit. But I would say you knew you had the best hand going in and for a chance to triple up that early in the game, I would make that call everytime | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, palman, 20. Dec 2003 12:32 | ||
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| You pretty much nailed it on the head with your analysis. Your opponents are holding the exact cards you could ideally hope for, and you're still a 50% chance of getting knocked out right there. If you triple up and are guaranteed 100% to get in the money, then I suppose it wouldn't be a bad play, the problem is even after tripling up here your getting in the money isn't a guarantee. There's also a chance your reads are completely off. Morons get good hands as often as you do, so I try to avoid making guesses as to people's hands early. That's one of the reasons I do other things early in a SnG and not pay much attention, simply because I get tempted to make calls I wouldn't against better players and get burned as a result. (much like your reading a book comment) You can tell a player's skill level by watching their play early.... but usually most players play completely differently as the blinds increase (poor players with small blinds sometimes have a decent strategy shorthanded, and vice versa... patient players going crazy once blinds are up) I play QQ early in SnG's most like I would pocket 2's. The only time I'll raise with them is if I'm in somewhat late position I'll make a small triple the blinds bet so I can either a) get the button or b) not be totally in the dark against random blinds' hands if the board is low. | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, iceman5, 20. Dec 2003 13:20 | ||
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| Thats a tough call. I would say that in the SNG's that I play there is a good chance that both players have an ace. Maybe AK and AJs. If thats the case then your QQ has a much better chance since theres only 2 aces left. (57% chance) The other probability is exactly what happened. One guy has a lower pair than you and one guy has an ace. If the guy with ace has a kicker lower than your queens, you have a 56% chance of tripling up. If he has AK, then you still have a 45% chance of tripling up. Alot of people would say pick a better spot, but for me if its very early in the SNG, I would probably call. If it was already down to 5 or 6 people, I would fold unless I was short stacked. | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, vest besterly, 20. Dec 2003 14:52 | ||
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| I guess I still don't like my call because it was a dream table. The kind you only find every dozen games or so, where it seems like everyone made a pact to gamble rather than play anything vaguely resembling poker. I give myself better than 50/50 that if I would have folded and played ultra tight with my remaining 850 that I still would have gotten in the $$. Hind sight is always 20-20 of course, but if I would have called the 40 to see the flop, I certainly would have bolted when the A hit the flop, and barely would have been below my 1000 chip start. I've gotten torched slow playing big pairs before, but it wouldn't really be slow playing in this case since I'm not looking to get anything but a flopped set. | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, Daniel, 23. Dec 2003 12:39 | ||
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| I see it as a question of position in time. It's early in the tourney, and QQ not only loses to any Ax or Kx when one of those high card flops, its not impossible that one of the 2 holds KK or AA. Especially at lower buy-in tourneys, the size of the raise doesn't necessarily determine HOW strong a hand is, just if it's strong at all. Its a tourney and its a question of survival, with all the possibilities of losing with the ladies, why not just wait it out? | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, Mayo, 25. Dec 2003 17:34 | ||
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| I agree that the call was too risky at this stage, but I would usually bring QQ in for a raise (even early in a SNG). It still is a favorable hand and I would raise 2-3x the small early blinds. However, if re-raised for more than 10% of my stack, I would definitely throw them away. They are not a good all-in hand, but anytime a low flop comes out, you can usually pick up the pot with a pot-sized bet. I usually would check fold on the flop if a K or A flops. While you are in it for survival in a SNG, you do need to get to 2,500 chips before down to 5 players for survival. Therefore a chance to grab 400-500 chips with QQ is too valuable to pass up. I currently place in the $ in about 50%-55% of the SNGs that I play and my stack is growing nicely. However, it is very important that if you get to the $, get 1st or 2nd. You stack will not grow very quickly with a lot of 3rd place finishes. | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, SmallFeesh, 25. Dec 2003 22:17 | ||
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| well.... AK suited or not and QQ are far and away from trouble hands... what more are you looking for?? yes it is right to fold them when the situation arises.... but they should ALWAYS be brought in for a raise... limping around with them is asking for trouble when you let Ace poop card see it for cheap... in this case A5s is as about as crap as you get... and the JJ just figured he probably had the best hand! whenever you call... and you have everyone beat at that point the call can never be wrong! it is right to fold in this situation... and its right to call... it all depends on the raisers.... probably if you had made a larger raise they might not have even played the hands..... unlikely though in any online game... but still you can make alot of small mistakes in these SNG's and still make it in the money... CALLING all in is never great... if your going to do it you want to be the one to go all in... personally i hate going all in pre-flop... even with QQ.... but ya gotta go ya gotta go! again... both plays are fine... all in or all out... if you feel yourself to be a much better player post flop then you might definatley wait for a situation where you have a much more positive EV to out play your opponents... thats why i hate all-in... no out playing at that point! | ||
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| Re: QQ early on in SnGs, Bond18, 26. Dec 2003 01:40 | ||
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| Hey vest, i'll try to lay down my personal analysis for playing QQ. In your situation i prolly woulda just called PF and seen a flop and ocne they went over top i woulda tossed, my feelings towards QQ early is this. In a SNG starting with 800-1000 chips ish, if in early or middle position just call with it, and if its raised about 75ish behind you fold, if its raised less than that call and see a flop. Often if the flop comes J or T high you will bust somebody with AJ, AT,KT,KJ and garbage like that with your 75 investment, plus the chance that you'll hit a set. If theres overs on the flop and any action, just throw them away no problem. In late position i normlaly prefer to put in a medium sized raise, not as big as 100 normally but more around 60 to drive out any garbage limpers, that way if soembody goes over the top you can toss without losing much, and if an A or K comes you don't lose much either, but you also don't let total garbage hands in with a chance to outdraw you. Then if flop comes J high or lower i'll play it very aggressively assuming its not a very dangerous flop (ex you hold QcQs and flop comes Th9h8h) | ||
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