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Server Time: 1/8/2009 4:32:48 AM PACIFIC |
 Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, oboy, 18. Dec 2003 13:16 | ||
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| I'm in a large multi-table tournament. In the money with increase at every 10 players until the final table. There are 34 players left. Blinds are 2000/1000, I have 7000 chips. My table is playing pretty Straight forward, strong bets when they have the cards. I get KJ suited(Diamonds) in Late Position. Two Callers in front of me. One of the callers is a large stack who usually calls raises. I Call (Should I have Raised?). Small blind calls, Big Blind checks. Flop come 2H, 7D, 4D. Giving me 4 to the straight. Big Blind Raises 3000 chips. Folds around to me. I figure, Big Blind has at least a pair, most likely two pair. I figure I need the flush to win, normally I would fold, but feeling a little short stacked I go all-in. No diamond, and I'm gone. Wrong play, or did I need to gamble at that point? Should I have raised pre-flop? Thanks | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, KJo, 18. Dec 2003 13:22 | ||
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| With 7000 in chips and the blinds at 1000/2000, I'm going all in with whatever I decide to play pre-flop, no point limping with such a small stack. Not saying you should have played that hand- I doubt I would have- but if you decide to, then yes, all-in and hope the others fold or it's heads up would be the right play. Eli on 18. Dec 2003 13:16 oboy wrote: > I'm in a large multi-table tournament. > > In the money with increase at every 10 players until the final table. > > There are 34 players left. > > Blinds are 2000/1000, I have 7000 chips. > > My table is playing pretty Straight forward, strong bets when they have the > cards. > > I get KJ suited(Diamonds) in Late Position. Two Callers in front of me. One > of the callers is a large stack who usually calls raises. > > I Call (Should I have Raised?). > > Small blind calls, Big Blind checks. > > Flop come 2H, 7D, 4D. Giving me 4 to the straight. > > Big Blind Raises 3000 chips. Folds around to me. > > I figure, Big Blind has at least a pair, most likely two pair. > > I figure I need the flush to win, normally I would fold, but feeling a little > short stacked I go all-in. > > No diamond, and I'm gone. > > Wrong play, or did I need to gamble at that point? > > Should I have raised pre-flop? > > Thanks > > > | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, Risky Business, 18. Dec 2003 14:16 | ||
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| My general question to all is....at what point is your stack vunerable enough that your next play should be considered your last in a NL tourney? KJo - I've been keeping up with your aggressive posts lately, as I'm soaking up all the NL tourney info I can. You are always hell bent on playing your last hand as if the world was coming to an end. I read a lot of posts like yours, but I also read a lot of books that say to protect your last few chips, as they are the most precious. Do you consider yourself one that protects his last few chips? Or maybe our ideas of WHEN to push all-in on a marginal hand is different. (now go back up and read my general question) Bleeding vs. a quick death? Pick your poison. on 18. Dec 2003 13:22 KJo wrote: > With 7000 in chips and the blinds at 1000/2000, I'm going all in with whatever I > decide to play pre-flop, no point limping with such a small stack. Not saying you > should have played that hand- I doubt I would have- but if you decide to, then yes, > all-in and hope the others fold or it's heads up would be the right play. > > Eli > > on 18. Dec 2003 13:16 oboy wrote: > > I'm in a large multi-table tournament. > > > > In the money with increase at every 10 players until the final table. > > > > There are 34 players left. > > > > Blinds are 2000/1000, I have 7000 chips. > > > > My table is playing pretty Straight forward, strong bets when they have the > > cards. > > > > I get KJ suited(Diamonds) in Late Position. Two Callers in front of me. One > > of the callers is a large stack who usually calls raises. > > > > I Call (Should I have Raised?). > > > > Small blind calls, Big Blind checks. > > > > Flop come 2H, 7D, 4D. Giving me 4 to the straight. > > > > Big Blind Raises 3000 chips. Folds around to me. > > > > I figure, Big Blind has at least a pair, most likely two pair. > > > > I figure I need the flush to win, normally I would fold, but feeling a little > > short stacked I go all-in. > > > > No diamond, and I'm gone. > > > > Wrong play, or did I need to gamble at that point? > > > > Should I have raised pre-flop? > > > > Thanks > > > > > > | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, KJo, 20. Dec 2003 10:33 | ||
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| I definitely consider my last chips precious but I also of course want to avoid being in a desperate state. I think if you are first in the pot (very important to be the first) and have a chance at stealing, then hands like KJs are fine, and I don't mind going all in with it if all I have is 3-4x the BB, which is a close to desperate state. I consider it key in a tourney that to win you have to be able to steal blinds, and you can't steal anything with a smaller stack than that. Bottom line, if putting in a raise of 3-4x the BB will be more than 1/2 your stack, might as well push the whole stack in and make it even harder for someone to call. And I don't really see the point in getting blinded down while waiting for that killer hand to go all in with. If you're down to 1 or 2 BB's left, the best you can hope to do is double up, and you're still shortstacked. You get nowhere. Gotta take some chances. So to sum up- I prefer the quick death vs. bleeding, but I try to stay aggressive by stealing with marginal hands to prevent either. Eli on 18. Dec 2003 14:16 Risky Business wrote: > My general question to all is....at what point is your stack vunerable enough that your > next play should be considered your last in a NL tourney? > > KJo - I've been keeping up with your aggressive posts lately, as I'm soaking up all the > NL tourney info I can. > You are always hell bent on playing your last hand as if the world was coming to an end. > I read a lot of posts like yours, but I also read a lot of books that say to protect your > last few chips, as they are the most precious. > Do you consider yourself one that protects his last few chips? Or maybe our ideas of > WHEN to push all-in on a marginal hand is different. > (now go back up and read my general question) > > Bleeding vs. a quick death? Pick your poison. > > on 18. Dec 2003 13:22 KJo wrote: > > With 7000 in chips and the blinds at 1000/2000, I'm going all in with whatever I > > decide to play pre-flop, no point limping with such a small stack. Not saying you > > should have played that hand- I doubt I would have- but if you decide to, then yes, > > all-in and hope the others fold or it's heads up would be the right play. > > > > Eli > > > > on 18. Dec 2003 13:16 oboy wrote: > > > I'm in a large multi-table tournament. > > > > > > In the money with increase at every 10 players until the final table. > > > > > > There are 34 players left. > > > > > > Blinds are 2000/1000, I have 7000 chips. > > > > > > My table is playing pretty Straight forward, strong bets when they have the > > > cards. > > > > > > I get KJ suited(Diamonds) in Late Position. Two Callers in front of me. One > > > of the callers is a large stack who usually calls raises. > > > > > > I Call (Should I have Raised?). > > > > > > Small blind calls, Big Blind checks. > > > > > > Flop come 2H, 7D, 4D. Giving me 4 to the straight. > > > > > > Big Blind Raises 3000 chips. Folds around to me. > > > > > > I figure, Big Blind has at least a pair, most likely two pair. > > > > > > I figure I need the flush to win, normally I would fold, but feeling a little > > > short stacked I go all-in. > > > > > > No diamond, and I'm gone. > > > > > > Wrong play, or did I need to gamble at that point? > > > > > > Should I have raised pre-flop? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, mikeyvegas, 18. Dec 2003 13:49 | ||
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| If it were me I would be going all-in pre flop. My logic being that I'm only going to be able to get through the blinds 3(3BB + 2SB) more times with a max of seeing 28 more hands. I would think of this as an opportunity of stealing the pot with a semi-strong hand pre flop. Also, you may have been able to get this hand heads up against that Big Stack you described as opposed to going to flop 5 handed. After you called the blind and the flop hits you 4 to a flush, I think I would gamble just like you did and re-raise all-in hoping I can hit my 1.85:1 shot, which isn't all that bad since you need to improve on your short stack ASAP. I think betting 7000 to net a win of 13000 and to give you a total chip count of 20000 is worth the risk. You just ended up being on the 1.85 side, and little bit unlucky. This is just my opinion and I hope that it helps. on 18. Dec 2003 13:16 oboy wrote: > I'm in a large multi-table tournament. > > In the money with increase at every 10 players until the final table. > > There are 34 players left. > > Blinds are 2000/1000, I have 7000 chips. > > My table is playing pretty Straight forward, strong bets when they have the > cards. > > I get KJ suited(Diamonds) in Late Position. Two Callers in front of me. One > of the callers is a large stack who usually calls raises. > > I Call (Should I have Raised?). > > Small blind calls, Big Blind checks. > > Flop come 2H, 7D, 4D. Giving me 4 to the straight. > > Big Blind Raises 3000 chips. Folds around to me. > > I figure, Big Blind has at least a pair, most likely two pair. > > I figure I need the flush to win, normally I would fold, but feeling a little > short stacked I go all-in. > > No diamond, and I'm gone. > > Wrong play, or did I need to gamble at that point? > > Should I have raised pre-flop? > > Thanks > > > | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, LJH, 18. Dec 2003 15:41 | ||
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| OBOY, BAD PLAYING. WHAT WAS THE NECESSITY OF TAKING ON BIG MONEY. YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE CALLED. LJH | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, Brian Starr, 18. Dec 2003 18:14 | ||
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| mikeyvegas-there is guaranteed to be a situation sometime in the next 28 hands where he would be able to steal the blinds and prolong his life. I think this is a horrible call, as I think at this point he is looking at picking one more hand to play-either double up or go home-KJ isnt it. Also, even if he never got another hand and end up bleeding his money away, he would at least place in the 20s and get more money. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, SmallFeesh, 19. Dec 2003 02:15 | ||
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| Well, 4 to your flush wasn't EXACTLY what you were looking for, but your play in my eyes wasn't terribly bad, it is possible that the big blind flopped 2 pair, but un-likely, flopping 2 pair is grounds for a check-raise not a big bet out, you didn't say either way what it is that the BB had, so I would figure he had at least a pair, maybe top pair with a good kicker, but then again this is also a good flop for the BB to try and steal, no over cards, so it probably hit no one. Your going all in was the only play you could make here aside from folding, but you likely had quite a few outs, 2 over cards plus the nice flush draw. You would much rather win it right there, but you only had 2k more than his initial bet, so he would just about have to call with whatever he held. You definitely should not have raised preflop, as a preflop raise would pretty much make you pot committed, and any re-raise here is bound to have you beat. K J suited is, (to me), good in late position with ALOT of chips, but you definitely could have waited till crunch time to go dancing around in the pot! But since you played it I believe going all in on the flop was the correct move at that point. | ||
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| Re: Flush Draw - Was it a Bad Play, shorn, 19. Dec 2003 04:57 | ||
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| If I were you, I would have gone all-in here in this spot. You are pretty short-stacked for the blind structure and with two callers, there is T7k in the pot already in equity. Your hand is the type that I don't want to have to make any more decisions with post flop and if you just call here, you only have T5k left which isn't enough to scare anybody. Add to this that you may fold everyone off with your T5k raise and I think pushing all-in (or folding) are the only two options here. | ||
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