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Server Time: 1/8/2009 8:50:30 AM PACIFIC |
 KJo late, Barry T, 18. Dec 2003 11:50 | ||
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| Hi. Another pre-flop quiestion: It a 45-$10 game. Two middle position limoers to you. You are on the button with KJo. Do you fold (KJo is a marginal hand and I can wait for a better one), call (KJo is an OK hand, so I had better see the flop and see if I hit) or raise (I may have the best hand, I want to charge or eliminate the blinds)? Would it make any difference if you are the cut-off instead of the button? BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Blade, 18. Dec 2003 12:07 | ||
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| From the button I limp, KJo is marginal but you have position and its unraised so you may have the best hand as you noted. From the cut-off I may be actually more inclined to raise (depending on the players of course) so that I can buy the button. I don't think you lose to much by folding here either though. I wish I would have folded these situations when I was just starting out. -May the bridges I burn light my way -Blade | ||
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| Re: KJo late, shorn, 18. Dec 2003 12:29 | ||
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| I would raise here if I was going to play, in the cutoff or on the button. You don't want to play this hand with more than two others so calling is out of the question. Raising allows you to take control of the hand and (1) potentially win the pot if rags flop, (2) take a free card if you are checked too, (3) bet a good flop. Sure, the limpers could have a lot of hands that beat you right now, but I like my chances against middle/late position limpers with this hand. The only card to flop that really would worry me would be an Ace as I wouldn't think people would limp from MP with a hand like KQ as the first one on (or AJ for that matter), so if you hit top pair, you are likely to be ahead. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, ekim2000, 18. Dec 2003 12:54 | ||
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| An Ace could also be a perfect card to come on the flop, as it could give you a good bluffing opportunity. This is even more true if the other two cards are offsuit rags. If an Ace comes on the flop and your opponents do not have an Ace, there is a pretty good chance you will be able to steal on the flop. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Richard Martone, 18. Dec 2003 12:41 | ||
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| On the button it would be how many players have called. If many and I'm sure I can't push any out with a raise, I'd just call. A few, a raise is certainly an option against the blinds. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, mkpoker, 18. Dec 2003 13:31 | ||
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| Given how (I think) you play Barry, I'm guessing you'd raise, because a raise puts you in better position to make plays for the pot post-flop (I'm curious to see if my "read" is correct). I'd limp. Here's why: I don't think KJo is ahead at this point. In a LL game, Ax (suited or not) is an extremely common limping hand. I'd wager that at least one of the early limpers holds an A. These games also lean to the passive side. If an early limper holds AT or A9 and an A flops, he'll call to the river almost all of the time. It's a rare "play" that will push out a LL player with top pair, OK kicker on a reasonably innocent-looking board. So I'll limp, hoping to hit either top pair or a str8 draw with KJo. Anything else, and I'll check if checked-to (taking a free card) and fold if bet-into. If I hit top pair, I'll play it very fast, figuring I've got the best hand (obviously, single-suited, all-connected, or otherwise dangerous looking flops may affect that strategy). In my mind, this is a "hit the flop or fold" kind of situation. It's possible an early limper holds AJ or KQ. Those are the real danger hands here, because I could flop top-pair and still be behind. However, this is a fairly remote risk...and I'm willing to take the gamble. An advantage of raising pre-flop is that it may force the blinds out. That's a plus for sure, but I'd rather see this flop cheap and get away easily if I don't hit. I'd play the same way from the cutoff. However, my strategy might change if there were only 1 early limper or I viewed both early limpers (in your example) as a weak players. In either situation, I'd probably raise to isolate (drive out the blinds) hoping I could take the pot later even if the flop misses. But because most LL players learn toward passive/calling stations, I'm less than sanguine about my chances to "steal" this pot post-flop in a typical game. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Barry T, 19. Dec 2003 13:46 | ||
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| Hi. You know me pretty well I guess. I general, I raise. If the limpers are very tough and known to limp with big hands, I might reconsider. I HATE having the flop come K63 and losing to a 63 in the blind that got free play. I do not really mind losing to the 63o in the blind if they called my raise however. KJo plays better aganst 3 that it does aganst 5. Sure the blinds might call, (or have AK...sorry Mr. KJo) but I think it is bet to go for iton this round. What you do when you midd the flop is another question. BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, KJo, 18. Dec 2003 13:41 | ||
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| Wouldn't you know it but I, KJo, had this situation on the button in a tournament the other night, and it sent me home. I was getting short stacked, about 4 BB left. Two players limp, I go all in to try to steal the blinds/limp-ins. Unfortunately the BB had AK and called, and for some damn reason the limpers (87o and 44) called too. At least the AK won it. Biggest pot of the night. But I still like my play, and I think it's a raising hand if it's to be played at all. Eli on 18. Dec 2003 11:50 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Another pre-flop quiestion: > > It a 45-$10 game. Two middle position limoers to you. You are on the button > with KJo. > > Do you fold (KJo is a marginal hand and I can wait for a better one), call (KJo > is an OK hand, so I had better see the flop and see if I hit) or raise (I may > have the best hand, I want to charge or eliminate the blinds)? Would it make > any difference if you are the cut-off instead of the button? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Palinya, 18. Dec 2003 14:34 | ||
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| I think you have to look at what your opponents have played up to that point and decide from there. I also think if you are going to play it, you should raise it to try and knock out the blinds. What have your opponents been limping in with? Do they go in with any Ax hand or any suited cards? If you think it is likely that they would and they have been raising AJ and better then by all means raise it and go for it. If they are the type to limp from early position with AJ and KQ and throw anything worse (like they should) then you know you need to throw it away. I think it really, really depends on the read of your opponents. If you haven't figured them out yet then it is probably best to play it safe and throw it away. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Snorbolus, 18. Dec 2003 15:09 | ||
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| In my experience $5-10 players will limp from MP with all sorts of hands. I would be inclined to raise from either the button or cut-off in an attempt to fold off the blinds and then see how things go on the flop. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Formless, 18. Dec 2003 15:31 | ||
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| All things equal I call. A year ago I would've said raise. Folding and raising wouldn't be awful either. if this is a 10% rake to $4, and many 5-10s are, I think the correct move is to find a time game, I can't see how KJo will make a profit in this spot. I think rake is a big part of the equation that players ignore when deciding how to proceed in these situations. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Barry T, 19. Dec 2003 13:49 | ||
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| HI. If the rake is 10% to $4, I agree with you to find another game. However, I think I would fold the KJo in that game if I were in it. I cannot afford to make margial plays if they take away almost a full small bet from me every time I win a pot. I will have to play tighter than this. BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Wren, 18. Dec 2003 16:32 | ||
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| Against tough opposition, I limp. Against predictable/weak opposition, I raise. I don't muck this here unless I'm currently running very bad AND feeling the psychological fallout from it (a point where I really should be leaving the table, anyway!) I might be slightly more inclined to raise on the cut-off than the button, but it's close. on 18. Dec 2003 11:50 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Another pre-flop quiestion: > > It a 45-$10 game. Two middle position limoers to you. You are on the button > with KJo. > > Do you fold (KJo is a marginal hand and I can wait for a better one), call (KJo > is an OK hand, so I had better see the flop and see if I hit) or raise (I may > have the best hand, I want to charge or eliminate the blinds)? Would it make > any difference if you are the cut-off instead of the button? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Schuster, 18. Dec 2003 23:25 | ||
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| Given a "typical" game, I'd likely raise in this spot, cutoff or button. My hand might be best, I'd much rather play it against a small field than a large one, and taking the initiative will allow me to steal the pot when no one flops anything. And the best part, I'm in position, and I'm going to exploit that as best I can. Lee | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Barry T, 19. Dec 2003 13:50 | ||
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| Hi. This sums up my point of view on the hand pretty well. Thanks. BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late, timmer, 19. Dec 2003 12:00 | ||
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| on 18. Dec 2003 11:50 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Another pre-flop quiestion: > > It a $5-$10 game. Two middle position limpers to you. You are on the button > with KJo. > > Do you fold (KJo is a marginal hand and I can wait for a better one), call (KJo > is an OK hand, so I had better see the flop and see if I hit) or raise (I may > have the best hand, I want to charge or eliminate the blinds)? Would it make > any difference if you are the cut-off instead of the button? > > BarryT I dont know BarryT But the first thing to come to mind was raise to thin it down a bit and then bet the flop if checked to . But then again somthing has to be said for the conservitive call and fold if it dont hit you bet if they check. Id be more willing to do this in a 1-2 blind game rather than a 2-3 blind game. especially if the blinds were timid. | ||
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| Re: KJo late, Roy Cooke, 19. Dec 2003 22:53 | ||
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| Hi Barry It depends......I know you thought I was going to say that didn't you. I would probably call on the button..... FACTORS: I might raise if I was one off the button if I thought it might help me acquire last position.....Another factor would be how tight the blinds are...The looser they are the less likely I would be to raise.........The greater my propensity to bluff out my opponents, the more inclined I would be to raise to add value to my post flop bluffs... Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke Barry T wrote: > Hi. Another pre-flop question: > > It a 45-$10 game. Two middle position limoers to you. You are on the button > with KJo. > > Do you fold (KJo is a marginal hand and I can wait for a better one), call (KJo > is an OK hand, so I had better see the flop and see if I hit) or raise (I may > have the best hand, I want to charge or eliminate the blinds)? Would it make > any difference if you are the cut-off instead of the button? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late...BarryT was right, mkpoker, 22. Dec 2003 18:39 | ||
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| After being at the losing end of the judge's decision on this hand, I'm playing today in cutoff and what hand comes after 2 middle limpers? QJo (a slightly worse hand, but the same general principle). I figure WTF, let's give it a whirl. I raise. BB and early limpers call. Flop comes Td9s6d, giving me an open end straight draw. EP limper checks, MP bets. I raise, looking for a free card if need be. BB folds. EP calls, MP calls. Turn is a 8c, giving me the nut straight. 2 checks, I bet, two calls. River is a blank, leaving me with the nuts. I bet, 1 call, 1 fold. MP caller has Q9s. Obviously, one hand doesn't prove anything, but this hand made me chuckle. Had I not read this thread, I would have limped for certain, and that would have cost me a few bucks. I'm a convert! | ||
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| Re: KJo late...BarryT was right, Barry T, 22. Dec 2003 23:41 | ||
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| Hi. I hope the check is in the mail! Gee, how bad can it be to play QJo against Q9o in position. If your guys are limping with this trash, they deserve to be raised by slightly better trash. BarryT | ||
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| Re: KJo late...BarryT was right, Schuster, 23. Dec 2003 11:07 | ||
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| No kidding. I was in the same spot yesterday with an offsuit KJ - 2 middle limpers and me on the puck. Sure enough, I popped it and flopped top 2. One guy went to the river with me with a K9s. Gotta love hands that turn out like that. Lee | ||
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