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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:38:16 PM PACIFIC |
 Quasi Ethical Dilemma, hokie95, 16. Dec 2003 18:47 | ||
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| Ok, here's a situation that arose at the Excalibur on Sunday morning before Melissa and I headed for the airport. I am trying to figure out what the "right" thing to do is given that it's a poker room. Here's the scenario: Melissa and I have been sitting at this table for about 2 to 2.5 hours. The whole time, there is a guy sitting to my left not saying a word and drinking Greyhounds one after another, and smoking like a chimney. (I generally have no beef re: smoking. Anyone who knows me well will know why. Please do not turn this into a smoking debate.) There's one other thing this guy is doing: calling every bet in every hand all the way to the river, with nothing. When you read about calling stations, this is the creme de la creme, the archetype, the poster child, you get my point. He NEVER folded. He put some unbelievable beats on some people (32o for a full house, 72o making a runner runner straight.) I don't know why he looked at his cards. But he also was the main source of income for everyone at the table. Most of us stayed out of each other's way and salivated when you had a hand and could get heads up against him. In short, the absolute best type of player you could possibly want at your table. Then, this happened: He lights up his 97th cigarette of the night and blows smoke directly at me, I don't think on purpose. Following the code, I don't snap his neck like I wanted to. Instead, I asked him not to blow smoke in my direction. He generally complied. Then, about 5 hands later, he very deliberately blew smoke right in the dealer's face. A big giant cloud of smoke. Duc (the very nice dealer) coughed -- I don't think it was an act -- several times and went back to his dealing. The dilemma -- the dealer is clearly not going to say anything. Do you, as a player, say something to this guy? Or does the fact he has dug into his pocket for about $500 (at a 2-6 spread table, remember) since you sat down keep your mouth shut? Scroll down for what I did, and then let me know if you think I did the right thing. I tapped him on the shoulder and said firmly, but politely "don't blow smoke in his face again. He won't say anything or do anything, but I will." Duc looked at me, smiled and gave me a half nod of appreciation and the game continued as before. He didn't run off and he didn't change his play. But, should I let a guy be a jerk to someone else because he's making me money? | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, Angel, 16. Dec 2003 19:03 | ||
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| Whether or not you should say something to someone who is being a jerk is a personal decision. Whether or not it is right to do so when he is being a jerk to someone who cannot defend theirself is not an ethical dilemma - the ethical response is to defend the defenseless. It isn't a question of right or wrong whether one should try to stop someone from throwing a puppy in a baggie over a cliff - you should do so. Now if the guy is Mike Tyson - you're going to get hurt and may decide the puppy isn't worth it - or rather, that your chances of saving the puppy isn't worth it - but it doesn't stop it from being the right thing to do. The dealer in question was defenseless - you stood up for him at risk to your financial self. If that was a choice (and not knee jerk) then it was an admirable decision. | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma...Q for Angel, mkpoker, 17. Dec 2003 17:42 | ||
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| on 16. Dec 2003 19:03 Angel wrote: Whether or not it is right to do so when he is being a jerk to someone who > cannot defend theirself is not an ethical dilemma - the ethical response is to defend > the defenseless. Angel, I know you've been a dealer so I'll defer to you here, but I wonder: Is it accurate to say the dealer "couldn't defend himself?" Many times, I've seen a dealer politely ask a player to change his behavior and when the player mouthed off or refused, the dealer called the floorman over. In this case, my instinct would be to follow the lead of the dealer. If he called the floorman over, I'd report the behavior I'd seen (the jerk deliberately blowing smoke at the dealer) as an objective "witness." But I don't think I'd intervene first. However, I might change my position on this if I learned that dealers really are "defenseless" and/or that floor managers discourage dealers from complaining about bad player behavior. What's the reality here? I guess I'm divided between the principles of "defending the defenseless" (which I agree should trump other concerns) and "staying out of other peoples' problems" (which is good poker policy generally). | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma...Q for Angel, Angel, 17. Dec 2003 18:23 | ||
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| mk, I'm afraid that my opinion on this had little to do with my dealing history - in which, interestingly, I very rarely had a problem and when I did, it often failed to bother me (one notable exception when a player drew blood but...). In some casino's the floor truly wants to be called over if the dealer is being mistreated, in many others they don't want to hear about it. It gets worse the higher you play - for instance, at $1/$2 Holdem at the Commerce the floor is likely to throw you out for abuse that they won't even address at the $80/$160 Holdem game. As for discouraging a dealer for complaining - I was always considered to be a great dealer, I believe that the fact that I never complained was part of that assessment but no, no one ever told me that it would be unwise to complain. I guess it's like this - a floorman has a tough job. Dealing with one more person who has a problem is one more way their job becomes increasingly difficult. As a dealer - you don't want the floor to consider you one of the reasons their job is difficult. I suppose the other implied 'defenselessness' is based on the idea that the dealer is there to make a living via tips. If the dealer annoys a player that will affect his wage. If the dealer politely asks a player (who is hemmoraging cash - or who is terrible but has all the chips on the table due to a lucky run or...) to change his behavior and called the floorman over when he was mouthed of at and the player decides to leave as a result then, righly or wrongly - the dealer is likely to have ticked of the majority of the table. It is very easy for them to show their disapproval by simply not tipping. So the choice becomes - 1. Be abused and hope someone says something or the floor hears and decides to do something about it. or 2. Be polite but firm, calling the floor over if necessary and take your chances on being (affectively via tips) docked wages. Until the "Zero Abuse Policies" are more than just a sign on a wall dealers are going to bear the brunt of emotionally immature players that the casino's decide are still worth their $10/half. Personally - I never felt defenseless. I always saw it as a choice - I'm a big enough guy that I knew that if I wanted to I could end it real quick despite the fact that I'd get fired. I think that 'choice' saved me alot of times - that I could answer the question, "Is he worth it?" Without the choice (like for instance, some 90 lb asian girl), I probably would have taken up drinking. Anyway, not sure if I answered your question - but I feel as if I've rambled enough. :) | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma...Q for Angel, mkpoker, 17. Dec 2003 23:21 | ||
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| It does (somewhat) answer my question and it leads me to disagree with the general opinion expressed in this thread. I probably would NOT have intervened in this case. Let's face it: this guy's a huge fish and we want him in the game. And to take his money, I'm willing to endure some annoyance (not flagrant abuse like physical intimidation). Maybe I'll even increase my dealer tokes as a way of saying "thanks for putting up with this jerk." If the dealer feels the player has crossed the line, the dealer should call the floorman to intervene. It's not my job as a player to enforce the casino's behavior policy (again, with the exception of truly outrageous abuse, in which case all decent people should feel obliged to help). But as long as the dealer feels free to make that call to the floorman, I'll sit on my behind, take the jerk's money, and share a little with the dealer! | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma...Q for Angel, Angel, 18. Dec 2003 03:22 | ||
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| Like I said in my original response, "Whether or not you should say something to someone who is being a jerk is a personal decision." and my personal response is exactly what you outlined. I get busy trying to take the jerks money and will be more liberal with my tokes during that time but keep my mouth shut unless it crosses my line of 'too much'. Yes, I know I said that it was clearly right to say something - I also think it's immoral to let a sucker keep his money (My education of the quote comes from the wall at Kent Anderson's pool hall in Alaska where it has sat since before Matt Damon was born). Sometimes the world gives us moral grey area's and we have to make a choice. :) | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, theo, 17. Dec 2003 01:40 | ||
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| yes | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, JLenart, 17. Dec 2003 09:31 | ||
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| hokie, Perfect solution to the problem, you got your point across and still kept him at the table! Congrats! By the way, you showed class, which can be a rare trait in the poker room. | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, backtoanalog, 17. Dec 2003 13:30 | ||
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| I thought about it and before scrolling down I decided indeed I would say something. But I didn't think about how I would say it. Let me just say that the way you put it, reminding the jerk that the dealer couldn't do anything about it, was brilliant, classy, and the best way you could have said it. I'm not sure I would have been as classy to the jerk. Kudos. As a sidenote, I am a bellman in my day job and situations somewhat similar to this come up all the time. People being jerks, tipping you a dollar for a half-hour's worth of lugging very heavy bags/frieght, using lewd and inappropriate language, making racist comments. Of course I have to weigh whether or not I want to upset a customer (and losing a tip) by calling them out. Of course it all depends...sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. And yes, some people have no problem with tipping a grown man a dollar for lugging his whole family's luggage (that was unloaded from a Cadillac Escalade). | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, Mikewad, 17. Dec 2003 16:56 | ||
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| Hello Felicia. It is always advisable to stay out of other peoples disputes at a poker table. If your not involved its always best to keep your mouth shut ! good luck! | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, KJo, 17. Dec 2003 18:14 | ||
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| Felicia? on 17. Dec 2003 16:56 Mikewad wrote: > Hello Felicia. It is always advisable to stay out of other peoples disputes at a > poker table. If your not involved its always best to keep your mouth shut ! good > luck! | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, Angel, 17. Dec 2003 18:24 | ||
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| I was thinking the same thing... :) | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, hokie95, 17. Dec 2003 18:44 | ||
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| Yeah, I've heard Felicia is sometimes confused for a man, but no one has ever thought I was a woman. Anyway, thanks for everyone's thoughts. On my flight home tonight (god, I fly too much) I was thinking about this again and was still not sure if I did the right thing. Best, Dave | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, Mikewad, 17. Dec 2003 21:20 | ||
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| sorry, dave I got the columns confused. | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, bkholdem, 18. Dec 2003 03:29 | ||
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| If I knew the dealer and felt like being a wise guy (I like to have fun when I play and this is sometimes fun to me) I might have waited until I took a pot from that clown and after raking in the chips....sorted through the chips looking for 'a certain one' making comments like "Now let me find the chip I'm looking for" or something similar. Then like "Here's one"..."this is one of smokie's chips...here dealer...this is a tip from smokie" and watch how he grumbles as the other players chuckle haha | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, FeliciaLee, 18. Dec 2003 10:28 | ||
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| It happens every day. Someone I met from one of the poker forums didn't believe me. Then he came to Laughlin to visit. During our time together, I was mistaken for a man twice. I laughed heartily, as his eyes bugged out of his head. I got to say, "I told you so," like a little kid. LOL! Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: Quasi Ethical Dilemma, Formless, 18. Dec 2003 05:45 | ||
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| Nobody ever defended me when I was in the box. I've rarely seen anyone stick up for a dealer. I'm trying to remember actively sticking up for a dealer as a player, and aside from passive stuff and the occasional "one dealer at the table, please" comment to get busybodies off a dealer's back, I can't think of any instances. About a year ago I last played in The Italian Game, a local private 15-30 game run by two brothers who would also play in the game to prop it. The younger brother was among the worst degenerates and poker players I'd seen, but this day he really went off the deep end. He also thinks I'm a narc, which makes it all the more fun. So he was losing the plot and talking openly and in detail about murdering us, especially me and the dealer Sandra. He was giving it to Sandra worse than I'd ever seen, which was weird because she was married to this huge guy Tony. I was wondering why she put up with the crap. No one was sticking up for her, probably because they didn't want to piss the owner off. Me, Sandra, Tony and my girfriend all used to work together, and Sandra and my girlfriend were friends. I didn't care much for Sandra (neither did some others), but still felt bad that she was getting abused so badly and I didn't stick up for her. About a month ago I was talking to a mutual friend and she told me some pretty nasty things about Sandra and the circumstances of her divorce which didn't surprise me at all. I don't feel so bad about not sticking up for her now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the right thing to do is not always cut and dried. | ||
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