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Server Time: 12/1/2008 9:40:20 PM PACIFIC |
 Making the crying calls with a set, HoldemNewbie, 16. Dec 2003 08:17 | ||
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| In my other posts from today Ive mentioned my horrible bad streak in my attempt to move up in limits. I think i may need some advice on folding sets. For example: this is $2/4 on Party. I hold pocket 88's and in LP with three limpers, I limp and look to make a set. Button calls as do both blinds. The flop is seven handed. Good so far. Flop comes 8 J 2 with two spades. Its checked to EP limper who bets, two call, I raise, button folds, SB folds, BB calls and so do the three early limpers. Turn is a Kc = board now 8s Jh 2s Kc Checked to me I bet and get two callers, River is a 5s BB now opens with a bet, Im pretty sure im beat with a flush. But I make the crying call because of the the big pot. SHould i lay down a set if my read is that im beat. I know in LowLimit there isnt that much bluffing. Is saving one BB worth it in this situation? In the past week I have lost so many of my flopped sets that I think I could have saved some BB if I folded them. But I read somewhere (cant remember where) that you should always make the crying call on the river in Limit holdem if you have a set. (not trips, but a set). Does this advise pertain to LowLimit? I think it pertains more to higher limit where a BB bet actually means something. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, Mark, 16. Dec 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Hi In order for me to lay down that set, i would have to be very sure the bettor has a flush. I would have to be able to rule out two pair or a bluff. This means that unless the opponent is a tight passive player or I know his play inside out, i'll make the crying call most of the time. The reason making the call is correct is, in a pot with approx 10 big bets (like the one you described) you only have win 1 in 9 pots to show a profit (1 in 10 to break even). So, you need to be very sure you're beat in order to correctly lay the hand down. Mark | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, grant pittman, 16. Dec 2003 09:52 | ||
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| Holdemnewbie it's a tough situation when you flop a set and lose. I think it is more disappointing with a flopped set simply because you played the hand to flop a set and still lost!!!! That being said, you don't want to make a HUGE error by folding your hand on the end for one bet. There is way too much money in the pot to even CONSIDER a fold here! I see players trying to improve their game by making big laydowns on the river in some pretty hefty pots. Don't be fooled into believing that this is good poker. In most cases, when the pot is large, you are better off paying the hand off. You don't have to be right very often to justify the call and if you are wrong you will be a long time making up the lost bets and forgiving yourself no matter how well you play! Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, Phish, 17. Dec 2003 17:07 | ||
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| Just want to reiterate Grant's point. If you make laydowns like in the situation here with any kind of regularity, you may just become the biggest fish in all your games. I see way too many posts on this board advocating play that is much too weak tight (perhaps not to the degree of folding in this situation, but some come pretty close). Everyone seems to be trying so hard to save that one bet on the end . I think it's due to an over-reaction by the novice players against 'playing bad' (they know that the worse players call too much, so they overreact by trying too hard to not make a bad call.) When playing holdem, that type of attitude is a sure road to being a sucker. Remember, paying off with a loser may be bad, but folding a winner is MUCH worse, at any stage of the hand. The money you should've won but didn't cause you folded the best hand on the flop spends just as well (and there's probably more of it) as the money you save by making the good laydown. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, NewSchool, 16. Dec 2003 10:13 | ||
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| Your story is another example of why I completely dislike LIMIT hold em. Go to no limit, then you wont let them see their river, it will cost them too much. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, NewSchool, 16. Dec 2003 10:19 | ||
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| The reason why the best players prefer No Limit is because it does not limit the most important thing in poker.... BETTING! Betting is such a huge part in hold em. Limiting the bets to a certain amount not only reduces the amount you could possibly have won if the game was no limit, but also allows people to chase their arse off. Whenever I have a good hand, and I know that someone is on a flush draw, I bet big, and make them pay a lot to draw. If they get their draw, so be it, but the majority of the time they wont. For instance, if you had a higher full house than someone in limit hold em, you will win the hand, but not as much if you were playing no limit. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, Snorbolus, 16. Dec 2003 12:34 | ||
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| New School, Personally I prefer to play pot- or no-limit hold'em too, but many people do not. If somebody is asking a question about a problem in limit poker there isn't much point telling them that no-limit is better game. You might just as well advise them to play profesional baseball instead, because there are no salary caps in that game so the potential to earn is huge. Snorbolus on 16. Dec 2003 10:19 NewSchool wrote: > The reason why the best players prefer No Limit is because it does not limit the most > important thing in poker.... BETTING! Betting is such a huge part in hold em. Limiting > the bets to a certain amount not only reduces the amount you could possibly have won if > the game was no limit, but also allows people to chase their arse off. Whenever I have a > good hand, and I know that someone is on a flush draw, I bet big, and make them pay a lot > to draw. If they get their draw, so be it, but the majority of the time they wont. > > For instance, if you had a higher full house than someone in limit hold em, you will win > the hand, but not as much if you were playing no limit. > | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, NewSchool, 16. Dec 2003 12:42 | ||
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| His problem is directly related to the fact that he is playing limit hold em. Plain and simple. I know for a fact that if he were to play no-limit, that problem (people chasing everything) would occur very less often. If you have a set on the flop in no-limit, you bet big, get people out, limit does not allow you to do that. Your analogy to Pro baseball is completely rediculous. Instead of making an obsurd and opinionated remark about a response to someone elses problem, post your own advice. Next time you decide to redicule someones response at least use a better analogy so you dont sound so ignorant. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, HoldemNewbie, 16. Dec 2003 12:52 | ||
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| I understand that perfectly, I know in no limit you can stop peopel from drawing. But im not ready for the swings in NL. Youve never been drawn out in NL? I doubt that. Im sure there will be times when i go all in on the flop with a top set and someone decides to call with four to a flush and ends up beating me. The problem there is i dont want to lose a $100 or so on one hand. Also, I feel that NL has a lot to do with tells and reads, thus being a better game live vs online. Ive played NL tourney in casino. But thats my only experience with NL. Actually I finished 22nd out of 117 in a NL tourney at the Trop. Didnt make the money, but it was fun. | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, NewSchool, 16. Dec 2003 12:59 | ||
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| Yes, ofcourse I have been outdrawn, but I have won a lot more times than I have been outdrawn, that is the truth. The perfect thing you can have is someone on a flush draw to call an all in with your set. The odds are totally with you on a call like that. Most people wont put all their money on a draw, and they may even get their flush, but pair the board at the same time. Try no limit online, there are $25 buy in's on Party all the way up to $200 and even smaller elsewhere. I definitely think you will like it better, but yes it does come with a lot more risk and thats why I love it : ) | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, Snorbolus, 16. Dec 2003 14:17 | ||
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| I guess that my post did sound a little rude. Sorry about that. I was just trying to say that no-limit is a completely different game from limit. Not better or worse, just different. I believe that it is possible to become a winning limit hold'em player; just giving up and learning a different game instead is not the only choice. Once again, sorry if I offended. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Making the crying calls with a set, Jav, 16. Dec 2003 18:04 | ||
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| I think your point is correct Snorbolus. Limit hold'em is a popular game and there are good times to play it. It is usually much easier to find a profitable game of limit hold'em than a profitable game of no limit holdem. (Much more games to choose from). And there are ways to play limit poker profitably as well, and his question was a valid strategy question for limit poker. In my opinion you have to make that crying call on the river. Unless it is bet and raised before you, I would almost always call. You would have to have very strong knowledge of your opponents hand to do otherwise. | ||
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