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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:34:25 PM PACIFIC |
 How many mistakes did I make?, Easy E, 15. Dec 2003 14:09 | ||
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| I've been thinking about this hand for a while, thought I'd finally put it together. It's a TLLEC (Typical low-limit East Coast) game. Typical = generally passive, generally bad calling on various streets, generally larger numbers of callers than there should be. I have 5s4s in middle position. I may have called a raise preflop (I can't remember now) but I don't think I called it cold (given that it was a TLLEC, i might have anyway). 5-6 callers at least. Flop is Ad 7d 3d There's a bet in front, just to my right, and I raise. Most of the players call me. Turn is the As Checked up to the opener, who moves to bet, thinks/hesitates and then checks. I check as I'd planned, it's checked around. River is 6off. Checked to me, I bet, get callers and take it down. The flop opener had A8 and I'm pretty sure did not have the 8d Fire away. | ||
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| Re: How many mistakes did I make?, noiseboy, 15. Dec 2003 15:08 | ||
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| I understand entering a pot in a LL game with 56s, but why are you raising a flop that almost completely missed you? A double gutshot is a good draw to a rainbow flop, but with single suited flop, you might be dead. You have six possible outs, none of which are looking that great because you know that somebody likely has at least one of the suit. Anyway, I don't think drawing at str8s when a made flush is possible is good poker. The whole point of a hand like 56s is that you want to either flop a good made hand like two pair or a str8 or flush, a draw to one of those good made hands, or you get out really cheap. I just don't think you had enough to continue past the flop. | ||
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| Re: How many mistakes did I make?, mkpoker, 15. Dec 2003 16:35 | ||
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| Holy cow. No matter how passive the game, I wouldn't limp with 45s from MP. Maybe from the button. But with suited connectors so low, you run the risk of being at the "idiot" end of a straight (with a board like 6-7-8) or losing out to a higher flush. Both scenarios will cost you big $$. When the single suited flop hits, you've got to bail. You've got 6 outs AT BEST, any diamond kills your hand, and you could already be drawing dead. You got incredibly lucky here...lucky to make your hand and lucky that no one had you beat. | ||
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| Re: How many mistakes did I make?, bkholdem, 15. Dec 2003 16:51 | ||
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| I play in those low limit east coast games too. I don't think it's bad to play that hand from that position, but not for a raise. I would have folded on that flop as well. I'm pretty new to the game but tearing up those TECLL games, or whatever you called them. That type of hand is played better when open ended drawing or a made strait, even hitting your suit with a hand like that is gonna cost you. | ||
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| Re: How many mistakes did I make?, 4 POKER, 16. Dec 2003 04:00 | ||
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| Hi Easy E, I think if I were in a later position, with the game being generally passive/bad, I may have called a bet as well. (MP?). The one problem I see with your flop raise is that, in games where players are that typically bad, (regardless of their passivity), if they even have a baby flush, or perhaps one diamond in their hand, (even a smaller diamond), they may just call you. They probably won't bet it for themselves...but I think you may have a (harder) time getting them to fold to your raise. (and that's really what you're looking to accomplish, correct? Folding off the weak flush draws?). Are you looking more at the implied odds for if and when you make your straight? Obviously you are, because if you do make your hand and it's a clean card for you, and noone already has a flush, you will get paid off handsomely, for sure... But that's a pretty big (IF). And with 6 opponents seeing the flop, the likelyhood of someone already flopping a flush, should be a consideration. I understand 'why' you made the raise on the flop, but I still think that a fold was more in order. I just don't think that you received a (promising) enough flop for your 5-4 suited. Though the free card on the turn was a bonus because I don't feel that you could call another bet had there been one. But, I do like your bet on the river. You played for that hand, and you made it. If you can't bet a hand that you complete, than why play for that hand...at all. Add to that, that noone was probably going to bet it for you, IF noone had a flush... But sometimes in those passive type games, you just don't know what players are holding because they just don't bet and/or raise enough with their hands unless there close to being the nuts. And too many times, they aren't thinking like you are thinking and your flop move goes unnoticed. Hence, 'your' outs could be, imaginary outs. (You could have very well been betting somebody elses hand. A hand that was already completed on the flop). A hand that they may not raise you with, but one that they sure as hell will pay you off with....regardless. 4P- | ||
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| Re: How many mistakes did I make?, shorn, 17. Dec 2003 12:36 | ||
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| I don't like the raise on the flop for one simple reason..."too many players calling with crap hands on each street." This is not the right type of game to try this in as their is no chance you will get folks to fold, even to a double bet. They are getting 7-2 odds too, close enough to the 4-1 necessary to call with even a middle diamond. That being said, you had two choices here: raise or fold. Calling was clearly the worst play which you didn't do. If it were me, I wouldn't make this play in a passive game with poor players as there is just too much chance that even if you make your hand, you will lose to a better one. | ||
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