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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:29:35 PM PACIFIC |
 Improve your Game Quickly, Roy Cooke, 15. Dec 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Do you want to improve your game quickly, rather than learn by trial and error. Trial and error can work....But it takes many trials and many errors that cost you time and money....You can learn strategy in a shorter time and in much cheaper manner by learning from experts who write books....You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Once you have read all the books...Focus on the game and think thinks through while you are playing......You will grow from your experiences much quicker. Life is Good ;-) Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game Quickly part II, Easy E, 15. Dec 2003 10:59 | ||
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| what about practicing what you've learned, on poker software? | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game Quickly, hokie95, 15. Dec 2003 11:01 | ||
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| I just read this post and Wren's back to back, and have just come home from Vegas where me and my wife played together and I think that having someone to play with and then analyze your game together can be a huge learning experience. For example: I was in a hand with QJs with a flop of T-T-9, with 2 of my suit. So I have 2 overcards with a straight, a flush and a straight flush draw. I call that a monster draw. So, even though we are heads up after the flop, I call to the river. After the game was over, Melissa asked me why I would call that to the river? "You weren't getting the odds from the pot you always tell me I need for that draw, she said." (She was only focusing on the straight draw, not the combined straight and flush draws.) I then told her that I had read my opponent as having a 9. My feel for him was that he would have slow-played a full house and maybe even 3 10s, so his most likely hand was a 9 and something else, maybe a K (I was dead on, which was the first time I called a hand exactly while at the table.) That meant I had a bunch of outs 21 or 20 (4 Ks (if I was wrong, 3 if I wasn't), 3Qs, 3Js, 4 8s and the remaining 7 diamonds), and I knew I could check raise on the river if I got there, or fold the turn if it was scary. All that meant that I could get paid off pretty big for a maximum risk of $12, 6 on the flop and 6 on the turn. Of course, while I was playing I didn't add these up in my head. But I felt that it was the right call. And I think it was. (Thoughts?) But, my point is that if I didn't talk about it after the hand, I may not have analyzed it as closely as I did. And I might not have learned about my feelings at the time and whether I was playing right. So, I think having a partner to play with and work with (sorta like a coach, if not formally so) can do wonders for your game. Thoughts? -Dave p.s. I caught an 8 on the river and won with a straight Q high, but that's not the point. | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game Quickly, Easy E, 15. Dec 2003 11:04 | ||
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| "p.s. I caught an 8 on the river and won with a straight Q high, but that's not the point." SURE it wasn't... you just HAD to get that in there to prove you were correct, didn't you? egotist.... :) | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game Quickly, hokie95, 15. Dec 2003 11:21 | ||
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| on 15. Dec 2003 11:04 Easy E wrote: > SURE it wasn't... you just HAD to get that in there to prove you were correct, didn't > you? egotist.... :) > You see right through me. :-) | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game Quickly, Smokey27, 15. Dec 2003 13:57 | ||
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| i agree with your old lady. why draw to str8, flush, or overcards with the board paired? you might be drawing dead. I also think calling down was unwise, if you are going to play this draw drive with it on the eraly streets you will find out if your opponent is full and can fold. By calling all the way heads up you have no idea if your hand will be good and can only call the river when you get there. I think if you played this hand 1000 times this way you may loose money. But if you were certian of your read of the opponent only holding a nine why not represent the ten and drive him out early so that you don't have to catch a card to win? | ||
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| The Great Debate -- Drawing against TT9, hokie95, 15. Dec 2003 14:16 | ||
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| on 15. Dec 2003 13:57 Smokey27 wrote: >But if you were certian of your read of the opponent > only holding a nine why not represent the ten and drive him out early so that you don't > have to catch a card to win? Because it was a 2-6 spread LL game and the opponent was too crafty for his own good (fancy play syndrome), but not good enough to lay it down if I represented the 10 even if he believed me. He wasn't a calling station, but with a hand he was going to call a raise, at least. My thought was that I call 2 bets and get out if I miss. I had 20 outs, so I think I break about even over those 1000 hands if my read is correct. If my read is not correct, well, then I am going to lose about 999 of them, and a raise to represent the 10 is never going to work. And he had position on me, so I couldn't try a free card play. [EDIT: I just reread this. It was a spread limit game and the bet was maxed out. There was no "free card" play available whether I had position or not. Sometimes I am an idiot.] I understand your point, and if this was a 10-20 game, I might have tried it. Maybe I should have. I'll have to think harder about it. | ||
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| Re: The Great Debate -- Drawing against TT9, Smokey27, 16. Dec 2003 09:00 | ||
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| I didn't have that information about the type of game during my original post. I don't know how to play spread limit so I would be a miss for giving you advise on how to play it. My main point was that you cant call those cards 'outs' because the board was paired. I play very tight and very agressive if I had been in your situation and knew that a flop raise would not slow him down on the turn I think I would fold the hand, unless the pot was so big that I could afford to be drawing dead. I think the hand you stated is a great hand to debate how to play and was an excellent topic to post. | ||
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| Re: The Great Debate -- Drawing against TT9, hokie95, 16. Dec 2003 10:15 | ||
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| Yeah, that info. was crucial to my decision making. Also, if I had not been playing against this guy for about 3 hours, I would have been a little less confident in my read, which is really the crucial part of the hand. Without a read (a new player in the game) I lay that hand down as fast as I can get my chip protector off my cards. But, this guy "slow-played" trip aces with two on board and a pair of pocket Ks. Both of which ended up losers to draws, and elicited cries of frustration from him, but he won a few hands that way too. So, a bet -- to me -- meant a marginal hand. Of course, you could still say and probably be right, that this is a losing play even with the outs I did have, because the pot was not huge. I'm no good at figuring that stuff out. How big a pot shuld there be to call two $6 bets on the flop and river? | ||
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| Re: The Great Debate -- Drawing against TT9, Smokey27, 16. Dec 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I think you would need to calculate the chance of you hitting a str8, flush or overcards. Then you must discount them on the likelyhood of them being no good. Also you would need to calculate redraws, if you were sure he had a nine then any nine or ten on the river kills the hand you made on the turn. Lastly unless he has 10-10 you are technically not drawing dead as runner runner Queen or Jack makes you the big full house, although if the opponent had 10j or 10q and it went runner runner you would be splitting the pot. I think what this hand shows is that most players will conitue with a good draw, flush or str8, against one opponent which is usually a mistake. Many of the poker books have good sections on odds but the key concepts are: 1. Each out is about 2% chance of getting there 2. Hitting to the nuts is critical 3. Raised pots preflop usually have enough in there to draw to two way str8s and flushes 4. Most gutshots lay proper odds to see the turn, but not the river when the limit doubles 5. Implied odds must be considered (how much will you make when you hit your hand will you be able to raise, will the player call, etc.) 6. I will almost never draw to a str8 or flush with a paired board, and won't draw to a str8 if there is a possible flush draw | ||
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| Re: The Great Debate -- Drawing against TT9, Schuster, 19. Dec 2003 00:01 | ||
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| With all the outs he had and a good read that the opponent didn't have trips or better, this is a spot where you'd probably want to jam the pot on the flop. You're better than even money to make a straight or better with all those outs, plus the additional times you hit a queen or jack and win the pot. If you never draw to a straight when there's a two flush, or never draw to a flush when there's a paired board, you're probably missing out on a good bit of expectation. You need to extend your odds a bit, but you shouldn't just give up right away. Sklansky talks about this a bit in hold'em poker for advanced players. Check it out. Lee | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game: Read, Play, Read, mkpoker, 15. Dec 2003 16:23 | ||
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| I agree with Roy 100%, but will add this caveat: It's much easier to internalize a poker concept through playing, rather than reading. I've nicknamed the learning strategy I use as READ, PLAY, READ. Basically, it entails reading a bunch of books slowly and carefully. Then play for real money (play money isn't helpful). Every session, there will be a few hands where you'll question your play. Remember those hands carefully (even take a break to write some notes so you'll remember). Then, go back and read about that situation in your books. I've found that once you've read about a particular problem, played it badly, and then found your error by reading again, you'll never make the same mistake again. | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game: Read, Play, Read, Palinya, 16. Dec 2003 06:03 | ||
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| This is one reason that I love Poker Tracker with the new playback feature! I set aside a half hour every night after I'm done playing and scroll through the days games and replay every game that I lost more than a single bet on (and many that I won too). This has proven to be an incredible learning tool since I can watch the hand fully knowing what the opponent has and how he is playing it and why he does what he does. This is also invaluable during game time too. Now after I fold a hand pre-flop, I rarely watch the rest of the hand. Instead I am going through the last 10 or so hands in Poker Tracker playing them back and making notes about how people bet and what were they holding. This has helped me a lot. Just last night I found someone that limped in with KK, and JJ and then raised the flop when no over-cards fell. This turned out to be a consistant read on that player. There was another guy that would try to buy the pot in late position with absolutely nothing if it was checked to him. He became my primary check-raise target for the night. Anyway, it is sooo easy to spot these patterns after the hand has played and you can go back and watch it a bunch of hands seeing what they have from the start of the hand. And being able to pause it and rewind is great for note taking. Plus this combats my number one problem with playing on-line and that is boredom. Before I started doing this, my mind would wander and I just couldn't keep my attention on the game. The guy that limped in with KK... I might not have noticed it. The hand would have played out and I wouldn't be able to remember if he had limped in or raised pre-flop. I don't have this problem in a live game but for some reason on-line I do have this focus problem. Maybe its because I can't put a face to people or that there just isn't enough 'poker atmosphere' or just not enough action on-line to keep me focused or maybe its because the TV is on in the next room but Poker Tracker seems to have solved this for me | ||
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| Re: Improve your Game: Read, Play, Read, Blade, 16. Dec 2003 13:47 | ||
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| Porn solved my problem of being bored during online poker. Strangely though it has not helped my win rate as much as one would expect. back to playing :) -May the bridges I burn light my way -Blade | ||
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