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Server Time: 8/21/2008 1:16:15 PM PACIFIC |
 Move up or get up???, Wren, 15. Dec 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Hi all. Recently, I've been struggling with something that has taken quite the negative toll on my "poker life". As I've mentioned in the past, the game I pretty much always play at the casino is $5-10 hold'em. In the past, I've generally had great discipline, pretty good focus and a decent ability to pick up tells, put my opponents on hands, etc. Over about 400 hrs, I've made 1.1 BB/hr, and my standard deviation is low, which is certainly nothing to write home about, but is a fairly decent indicator that I'm beating the game. My problem lately, however, is that I've become very bored at the level. My discipline has been lacking, my focus has been off, I've been feeling impatient, etc. etc. I've left the casino the last two times feeling quite disgruntled, because of the discrepancy between my desire to play well at all times, and my as-of-late "don't give a rat's arse" about the game. This will most likely come off sounding petty and perhaps immature, but I think one of the main factors in this shift has been stdioh's recent heater at $20-40. He just moved up a few weeks ago, and has been having the streak of his life - each time he comes home from the casino, he reports having won somewhere between 25 and 100% of my entire profits thus far at the casino. It's making me feel frustrated & small - makes me think "Why the hell don't I have the balls to move up as well?" As I feel that we have approximately the save level of experience & theoretical know-how. But then the risk averse, doubtful side of me perks up and questions whether 1.1 BB/hr at one limit is enough to justify moving to a higher limit, whether I'd be misleading myself to think I'm beating the game, etc. etc. All in all, I'm fairly confident that if I utilize good table selection, focus on the game, maintain self confidence, etc. I'll be able to at least marginally beat $10-20, but that one part of me would like to be more "sure" about things than that. All in all, I just can't seem to respect or be interested in the $5-10 anymore. I'm thinking that my only real options are taking a break from the game, or moving up. Stdio thinks I should just bite the damn bullet and give $10-20 a shot. Any thoughts/suggestions from anyone out there on this? Any considerations that I may have missed? (bankroll isn't really an issue). Thanks guys! - A somewhat conflicted Wren | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Roy Cooke, 15. Dec 2003 10:52 | ||
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| Hi Wren I think you should give 10-20 a shot.....It will empower you and get you out of the mental rut you seem to be in...If you are not challenged and growing...your game can get stale....Sounds like that is what is happening to you! Life is Good ;-) Roy Cooke on 15. Dec 2003 10:44 Wren wrote: > Hi all. > > Recently, I've been struggling with something that has taken quite the negative > toll on my "poker life". As I've mentioned in the past, the game I pretty much > always play at the casino is $5-10 hold'em. In the past, I've generally had > great discipline, pretty good focus and a decent ability to pick up tells, put > my opponents on hands, etc. Over about 400 hrs, I've made 1.1 BB/hr, and my > standard deviation is low, which is certainly nothing to write home about, but > is a fairly decent indicator that I'm beating the game. My problem lately, > however, is that I've become very bored at the level. My discipline has been > lacking, my focus has been off, I've been feeling impatient, etc. etc. I've left > the casino the last two times feeling quite disgruntled, because of the > discrepancy between my desire to play well at all times, and my as-of-late > "don't give a rat's arse" about the game. This will most likely come off > sounding petty and perhaps immature, but I think one of the main factors in this > shift has been stdioh's recent heater at $20-40. He just moved up a few weeks > ago, and has been having the streak of his life - each time he comes home from > the casino, he reports having won somewhere between 25 and 100% of my entire > profits thus far at the casino. It's making me feel frustrated & small - makes > me think "Why the hell don't I have the balls to move up as well?" As I feel > that we have approximately the save level of experience & theoretical know-how. > But then the risk averse, doubtful side of me perks up and questions whether 1.1 > BB/hr at one limit is enough to justify moving to a higher limit, whether I'd be > misleading myself to think I'm beating the game, etc. etc. All in all, I'm > fairly confident that if I utilize good table selection, focus on the game, > maintain self confidence, etc. I'll be able to at least marginally beat $10-20, > but that one part of me would like to be more "sure" about things than that. > > All in all, I just can't seem to respect or be interested in the $5-10 anymore. > I'm thinking that my only real options are taking a break from the game, or > moving up. Stdio thinks I should just bite the damn bullet and give $10-20 a > shot. Any thoughts/suggestions from anyone out there on this? Any considerations > that I may have missed? (bankroll isn't really an issue). Thanks guys! > > - A somewhat conflicted Wren > > > > > > | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 10:30 | ||
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| Roy, Thanks for the encouragement. I agree that my game is feeling stale - perhaps making the jump up a limit will rejuvenate my interest in and excitement for the game :) on 15. Dec 2003 10:52 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hi Wren > > I think you should give 10-20 a shot.....It will empower you and get you out of the > mental rut you seem to be in...If you are not challenged and growing...your game can > get stale....Sounds like that is what is happening to you! > > Life is Good ;-) > Roy Cooke > > on 15. Dec 2003 10:44 Wren wrote: > > Hi all. > > > > Recently, I've been struggling with something that has taken quite the negative > > toll on my "poker life". As I've mentioned in the past, the game I pretty much > > always play at the casino is $5-10 hold'em. In the past, I've generally had > > great discipline, pretty good focus and a decent ability to pick up tells, put > > my opponents on hands, etc. Over about 400 hrs, I've made 1.1 BB/hr, and my > > standard deviation is low, which is certainly nothing to write home about, but > > is a fairly decent indicator that I'm beating the game. My problem lately, > > however, is that I've become very bored at the level. My discipline has been > > lacking, my focus has been off, I've been feeling impatient, etc. etc. I've left > > > the casino the last two times feeling quite disgruntled, because of the > > discrepancy between my desire to play well at all times, and my as-of-late > > "don't give a rat's arse" about the game. This will most likely come off > > sounding petty and perhaps immature, but I think one of the main factors in this > > > shift has been stdioh's recent heater at $20-40. He just moved up a few weeks > > ago, and has been having the streak of his life - each time he comes home from > > the casino, he reports having won somewhere between 25 and 100% of my entire > > profits thus far at the casino. It's making me feel frustrated & small - makes > > me think "Why the hell don't I have the balls to move up as well?" As I feel > > that we have approximately the save level of experience & theoretical know-how. > > But then the risk averse, doubtful side of me perks up and questions whether 1.1 > > > BB/hr at one limit is enough to justify moving to a higher limit, whether I'd be > > > misleading myself to think I'm beating the game, etc. etc. All in all, I'm > > fairly confident that if I utilize good table selection, focus on the game, > > maintain self confidence, etc. I'll be able to at least marginally beat $10-20, > > but that one part of me would like to be more "sure" about things than that. > > > > All in all, I just can't seem to respect or be interested in the $5-10 anymore. > > I'm thinking that my only real options are taking a break from the game, or > > moving up. Stdio thinks I should just bite the damn bullet and give $10-20 a > > shot. Any thoughts/suggestions from anyone out there on this? Any considerations > > > that I may have missed? (bankroll isn't really an issue). Thanks guys! > > > > - A somewhat conflicted Wren > > > > > > > > > > > > | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Easy E, 15. Dec 2003 10:58 | ||
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| ignoring the section where you're looking to change your physical nature (a development I'm SURE stidoh won't like!), I would rework Roy's reply to say that you should take a couple of shots at the $10/20 level, without leaving your "base" $5/10 yet. One, playing at the higher level will probably require an adjustment that may not come easily to Mrs. Risk Adverse. Second, you may find that you're re-energized for your "normal" game after moving up a level and facing a different kind of game... good luck | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 10:34 | ||
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| Hey Easy, Yup, I know that moving to the $10-20 will require significant strategy adjustment, but truth be told I'm looking forward to playing some "real" poker as opposed to just grinding around, playing essentially ABC against the clueless newbies. Yeah, the risk-averse part of me will have to endure some "stress", but I think (hope?) I'll be able to take it under control. And definitely - I'm not dumping $5-10 for good - If I find after several sessions that I'm not comfortable with $10-20, then moving back down is certainly an option. on 15. Dec 2003 10:58 Easy E wrote: > ignoring the section where you're looking to change your physical nature (a > development I'm SURE stidoh won't like!), I would rework Roy's reply to say that you > should take a couple of shots at the $10/20 level, without leaving your "base" $5/10 > yet. > > One, playing at the higher level will probably require an adjustment that may not > come easily to Mrs. Risk Adverse. > > Second, you may find that you're re-energized for your "normal" game after moving > up a level and facing a different kind of game... > > good luck | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, timmer, 15. Dec 2003 11:49 | ||
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| Wren, Possibly the skills you have learned would work better at a diffrent limit . However you are playing "your" limit. One of the keys to beating this limit is to assess what mistakes the opponents are making and then taking advantage of them. If you feel your skills are better suited for a higher limit. and you feel like taking your best shot there, I suggest you go ahead and test the waters there. But be well aware that a early rush does in no way mean your beating that game. However you are beating your present game. why not focus on squeezing that game a bit harder. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 10:42 | ||
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| Timmer, I think a big factor contributing to my recent boredom is that (as I mentioned in my response to Easy) I'm sick of playing the grindy, uncreative, ABC style of poker that makes the money at the lower limits. I want more of a challenge. I've proven to myself that I can have the discipline, patience, etc. to beat this type of game, and now I want to take a shot at something "bigger and better". I know I'll need to play a crapload of hours to determine how much (if at all) I'm beating the game - I'm not one to overestimate my poker prowess (if anything, I'm very self-critical :) Thanks for the thoughts. on 15. Dec 2003 11:49 timmer wrote: > Wren, > Possibly the skills you have learned would work better at a diffrent limit . However > you are playing "your" limit. One of the keys to beating this limit is to assess what > mistakes the opponents are making and then taking advantage of them. If you feel your > skills are better suited for a higher limit. and you feel like taking your best shot > there, I suggest you go ahead and test the waters there. But be well aware that a > early rush does in no way mean your beating that game. However you are beating your > present game. why not focus on squeezing that game a bit harder. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Hot Allen, 15. Dec 2003 12:12 | ||
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| Wren, I don't like hearing you all down about your game. The few times I've played with you it was clear that you knew what you were doing. One of the main problems is that at Brantford 5/10 is still a bit of Bingo. I mostly stick to 10/20 when I go there, sometime 5/10 or 20/40 (it all depends on table selection). I go with a couple of buddies who still keep to 5/10 and I will sometimes join them for an hour or two just to talk and stay awake. I do notice these games are fairly loose for a more serious player like yourself and it is hard not to get involved in to may more hands. I think you will find 10/20 more serious at Brantford. There is a group of regulars who wear their tells nice and loud. The other thing is not to be tempted to stare at those new TVs they got there. Yes they are nice to watch but you are missing some important information about the game when you are watching those sport highlights. I think you need to excited about reading people again. Often I have (even myself) that seasoned players get too comfortable at their regular rooms and stop paying attention to the moves being made around them. I do not mean in anyway to be racist, but brantford has a certain continent of people that play only the math of the game and are thus very easy to be made on hands. Get excited again about making great lay downs. Maybe I'll see you soon again and we can play some 10/20 together and talk about the play. I saw The Duke the other night, I didn't realize that he was doing so well, that's great. I've just been doing the Vegas thing lately, booking cheap flights as they come. The money is so much easier down there. Keep hope alive. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 10:53 | ||
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| Hey HotAllen, You hit the nail on the head with a lot of your points here. Yeah - I need to get excited about the game again. I need to regain the focus and "zone" to pick up tells, confidently put people on hands, and feel good when I'm consistently accurate or very close. That's what makes the game great - picking up & piecing together all the little clues that opponents give out & using these to form the best strategy. Thanks for the encouragement. Yeah, maybe we'll run into each other at the $10-20 sometime soon :) BTW that's great that you're able to make it down to Vegas so frequently. Dook and I (as well as several others on here) have tentative plans to head down for the WSOP. Would be great to meet some fellow UPFers, play some satellites, etc. on 15. Dec 2003 12:12 Hot Allen wrote: > Wren, > > I don't like hearing you all down about your game. The few times I've played with > you it was clear that you knew what you were doing. > One of the main problems is that at Brantford 5/10 is still a bit of Bingo. I > mostly stick to 10/20 when I go there, sometime 5/10 or 20/40 (it all depends on > table selection). I go with a couple of buddies who still keep to 5/10 and I will > sometimes join them for an hour or two just to talk and stay awake. I do notice > these games are fairly loose for a more serious player like yourself and it is hard > not to get involved in to may more hands. I think you will find 10/20 more serious > at Brantford. There is a group of regulars who wear their tells nice and loud. The > other thing is not to be tempted to stare at those new TVs they got there. Yes they > are nice to watch but you are missing some important information about the game when > you are watching those sport highlights. I think you need to excited about reading > people again. Often I have (even myself) that seasoned players get too comfortable > at their regular rooms and stop paying attention to the moves being made around them. > I do not mean in anyway to be racist, but brantford has a certain continent of > people that play only the math of the game and are thus very easy to be made on > hands. Get excited again about making great lay downs. > Maybe I'll see you soon again and we can play some 10/20 together and talk about the > play. > I saw The Duke the other night, I didn't realize that he was doing so well, that's > great. > I've just been doing the Vegas thing lately, booking cheap flights as they come. > The money is so much easier down there. > > Keep hope alive. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, MozMan, 15. Dec 2003 18:27 | ||
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| Hey Wren- Doing something different might be a good idea. Sometimes, variety is the spice of life. I have stepped up in limits for the same reasons. First, to 6/12, then to 10/20. Keep in mind, you can always go back for a session, for a few hours, or indefinitely. Sometimes, a game in a new location is a good idea, too. I played some games in Laughlin this weekend, and it really revitalized me. It was the first time I played somewhere other than CAZ, except for home games. -Moz "How can Ace be one AND eleven? Huh? What kind of god would allow THAT?" | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 10:56 | ||
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| Hey Moz, Yeah, Dook and I have tossed around the idea of heading to Rama or Port Perry instead of Brantford for a change, but to be honest neither option's appealing to me - PP allows smoking, and Rama's really flipping far away. I actually really like Brantford's card room - it's well managed, clean and comfortable, and the people are generally friendly and respectful. Though I won't pass up a trip to Vegas - that's for sure! :) on 15. Dec 2003 18:27 MozMan wrote: > Hey Wren- > > Doing something different might be a good idea. Sometimes, variety is the spice of > life. I have stepped up in limits for the same reasons. First, to 6/12, then to > 10/20. Keep in mind, you can always go back for a session, for a few hours, or > indefinitely. > > Sometimes, a game in a new location is a good idea, too. I played some games in > Laughlin this weekend, and it really revitalized me. It was the first time I played > somewhere other than CAZ, except for home games. > > -Moz > > "How can Ace be one AND eleven? Huh? What kind of god would allow THAT?" | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Formless, 16. Dec 2003 09:20 | ||
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| Wren, I've played at a table with you before; It's pretty clear to me you have the skill, talent, etc. to play up to 30-60, provided you make necessary adjustments. Take it from one who has gone from 2/5 games to 100/200. Dive in with both fists. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, WilliamS, 16. Dec 2003 09:56 | ||
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| Wren, I don't know you except from the little I know about you from this forum. But, in my opinion, it is very dangerous for any of us (regardless of the limits we play) comparing our monetary results with those of a counterpart playing higher limits. Now, that being said, from what I do know about you I would expect you are more than caple of beating the devil out of most 10-20 games. My original point remains the same though. We are all at a certain level in our poker "careers". Some of us are strict recreational players, while others of us aspire to or make our livings at poker. Regardless of that situation there is a game which suits our personality, bankroll, and risk tolerance the best. And with the exception of a very select few, there is always a game which is too large for 1 or all 3 of those criterion. We can all look at a bigger game than our own and look at the "greener pasture" on the other side of the fence, but we have to take a deeper look to see if that game is realistically better for us and not be tempted by the "big score". I would go so far as to say this is one of the greatest causes for competent players to lose their bankroll: moving up too quickly and playing in games which are too large for their bankroll, or too big for their ability, or both. (Speaking from experience here :( ) Will Will | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 11:25 | ||
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| Hi William, I'd say that if anything, I'm a little TOO cautious with respect to moving up. Stdioh thinks I should have moved up months ago. When I played online, I rarely played above the $1-2 limit. I've been playing (and beating) poker seriously for close to 3 years, but have always played a fairly conservative game, at conservative limits. Think Joey Knish - I know the angles, but don't have the balls to play 'em :) Ok - well I'm not a complete wuss, but what I meant is that I have good theoretical knowledge and know the types of plays that certain types of opponents are willing/able to make, BUT - if given the choice between 1.3 BB/hr with a huge variance, and 1.2 BB/hr with a small variance, I'll take the latter. Anyway....I seem to have rambled off into oblivion there :) As for where I want to go in my poker career: - I want to be a significant winner at the limit(s) I chose to play - I want to feel confident & comfortable at the limit(s) I chose to play - I want to enjoy the game at all times - I want to keep learning and thinking about the game, and continuously challenge myself with new poker situations and ideas. If I can achieve all this, I'll be a happy camper :O) on 16. Dec 2003 09:56 WilliamS wrote: > Wren, > I don't know you except from the little I know about you from this forum. But, in my > opinion, it is very dangerous for any of us (regardless of the limits we play) comparing > our monetary results with those of a counterpart playing higher limits. Now, that being > said, from what I do know about you I would expect you are more than caple of beating the > devil out of most 10-20 games. > My original point remains the same though. We are all at a certain level in our poker > "careers". Some of us are strict recreational players, while others of us aspire to or > make our livings at poker. Regardless of that situation there is a game which suits our > personality, bankroll, and risk tolerance the best. And with the exception of a very > select few, there is always a game which is too large for 1 or all 3 of those criterion. > We can all look at a bigger game than our own and look at the "greener pasture" on the > other side of the fence, but we have to take a deeper look to see if that game is > realistically better for us and not be tempted by the "big score". I would go so far as > to say this is one of the greatest causes for competent players to lose their bankroll: > moving up too quickly and playing in games which are too large for their bankroll, or too > big for their ability, or both. (Speaking from experience here :( ) > > Will > > Will | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 11:08 | ||
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| Formless, Where have we played together? I'd imagine online at UB? Or do you play at Brantford? BTW thanx for the encouragement, though I'm not sure variance-shy li'l me will ever touch a limit as high as 30-60 ;) on 16. Dec 2003 09:20 Formless wrote: > Wren, > I've played at a table with you before; It's pretty clear to me you have the skill, > talent, etc. to play up to 30-60, provided you make necessary adjustments. Take it > from one who has gone from 2/5 games to 100/200. Dive in with both fists. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Formless, 16. Dec 2003 13:16 | ||
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| I've played you at PokerStars and PokerPages freerolls. IIRC, you have a very good record in online tournaments. Maybe a different Wren though. I haven't been to Brantford, but have played Rama, Blue Heron, etc., and given the level of play there I'm pretty sure you can beat the game. on 16. Dec 2003 11:08 Wren wrote: > Formless, > > Where have we played together? I'd imagine online at UB? Or do you play at Brantford? > > BTW thanx for the encouragement, though I'm not sure variance-shy li'l me will ever touch > a limit as high as 30-60 ;) > > on 16. Dec 2003 09:20 Formless wrote: > > Wren, > > I've played at a table with you before; It's pretty clear to me you have the skill, > > talent, etc. to play up to 30-60, provided you make necessary adjustments. Take it > > from one who has gone from 2/5 games to 100/200. Dive in with both fists. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Wren, 16. Dec 2003 14:28 | ||
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| Yeah, I kicked butt (more or less) in those Pages freerolls. I never actually *won* one of them, but I made it to a lot of final tables. In any case, I learned a lot playing those things. Where do you live? Toronto or thereabouts? Brantford has a great cardroom - well managed, smoke-free, good games, friendly players, etc. etc. I recommend checking it out. Maybe we'll run into each other there one day :) on 16. Dec 2003 13:16 Formless wrote: > I've played you at PokerStars and PokerPages freerolls. IIRC, you have a very good record in > online tournaments. Maybe a different Wren though. I haven't been to Brantford, but have > played Rama, Blue Heron, etc., and given the level of play there I'm pretty sure you can beat > the game. > > on 16. Dec 2003 11:08 Wren wrote: > > Formless, > > > > Where have we played together? I'd imagine online at UB? Or do you play at Brantford? > > > > BTW thanx for the encouragement, though I'm not sure variance-shy li'l me will ever touch > > a limit as high as 30-60 ;) > > > > on 16. Dec 2003 09:20 Formless wrote: > > > Wren, > > > I've played at a table with you before; It's pretty clear to me you have the skill, > > > talent, etc. to play up to 30-60, provided you make necessary adjustments. Take it > > > from one who has gone from 2/5 games to 100/200. Dive in with both fists. | ||
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| Re: Move up or get up???, Formless, 16. Dec 2003 15:24 | ||
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| > Where do you live? Toronto or thereabouts? Brantford has a great cardroom - well managed, > smoke-free, good games, friendly players, etc. etc. I recommend checking it out. Maybe we'll run > into each other there one day :) I live around Toronto, but I hardly ever play live anymore. Good to hear that Brantford is well-run though, so if I do manage to pry my hand off the mouse for a night I'll head down. Good luck on the tables. > on 16. Dec 2003 13:16 Formless wrote: > > I've played you at PokerStars and PokerPages freerolls. IIRC, you have a very good record in > > > online tournaments. Maybe a different Wren though. I haven't been to Brantford, but have > > played Rama, Blue Heron, etc., and given the level of play there I'm pretty sure you can beat > > the game. > > > > on 16. Dec 2003 11:08 Wren wrote: > > > Formless, > > > > > > Where have we played together? I'd imagine online at UB? Or do you play at Brantford? > > > > > > BTW thanx for the encouragement, though I'm not sure variance-shy li'l me will ever touch > > > a limit as high as 30-60 ;) > > > > > > on 16. Dec 2003 09:20 Formless wrote: > > > > Wren, > > > > I've played at a table with you before; It's pretty clear to me you have the skill, > > > > talent, etc. to play up to 30-60, provided you make necessary adjustments. Take it > > > > from one who has gone from 2/5 games to 100/200. Dive in with both fists. | ||
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