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Server Time: 11/20/2008 8:03:01 PM PACIFIC |
 Im at the end of my rope, iceman5, 13. Dec 2003 09:37 | ||
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| Ive been playing for 6 months or so and have been winning ever since I left the play money tables. The most I have ever been down was about $25. I slowly climbed from .25/.50 up to $2/$4 winning at a good clip all the way. I have my stats broken up into 2000 hand increments and all of the .25/.50 and .50/$1 sets of 2000 show my winning between 3.3 and 6.5BB / hr. I won at $1/$2 at a pace of about 2.5BB/ Hr. My first 60 hours at $2/$4 I won 3.3 BB/Hr. Ive placed in 52% of all my SNGs and returned 52% also. These stats are just to show that Im not a total loser. Heres the problem. For the past 2 months I cant win at $1/2 or $2/$4 to save my life. I know I make mistakes which causes some small losses or wins that are not as big as they should be, but I still believe I play solid poker. Heres an example. I raise with AK. Player beside me calls. Flop is A62. I bet he calls. Turn in a 9. I bet he raises. I reraise he calls. River is a 10. I bet he raises. I call. He has AT. It happens over and over. No matter how aggressive I am , no matter how tight I play. Now all during this streak, I have continued to win whenever I go back to .25-.50 or .50/$1. I have continued to win at the NL SNG's. ( I won 3 in a row today). I even started playing Stud Hi/Low. I played a freeroll with 1500 people and came in 4th so I started playing the cash games and have averaged 7.6BB/Hr at $1/$2. (small sample). But EVERY TIME I go back to $1/$2 or $2/$4 Holdem, I either lose or win a very small amount. Since this streak started Ive averaged -1.0BB/Hr. I am at the end of my rope and am thinking about abandoning limit Holdem and sticking to NL. How can an otherwise very competant player continue to lose at $1/$2 and $2/$4 and win at a nice clip at everything else? And believe me Ive tried it all, form rereading my favorite books to playing very tight to everything else I can think of. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, Bond18, 13. Dec 2003 09:43 | ||
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| One thing you COULD try (and the guys on the forum will kill me for this one) is if your comfortable playing a tight aggressive game, try 3/6 or 5/10 (more likely 3/6) where players ability to lay a hand down is slightly better. If your problem is a lot of suckouts then hey, why not try moving up where they won't be QUITE as often, tho still frequent if that PP. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, iceman5, 13. Dec 2003 09:44 | ||
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| I forgot to mention that my account is at an all time high due to all of my winning at other games, which assures me that I wasnt just lucky at first and the law of averages have caught up to me. Believe me if that was the case, I would quit and take up knitting. Ive seen people win some at first and convince themselves that they are the next Phil Ivey and then lose it all, deposit more and continue this cycle. Ive made one deposit and never looked back. Like I said my account is the highest its ever been. Im at a loss. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, maniacmath13, 13. Dec 2003 09:58 | ||
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| hey, i guess i sorta know how that is. Ive been playing a lot of table games lately. I started out with the free 15 dollars they give you at gaming club poker, and now im up to 1,600. It wasnt easy at all thanks to a lot of horrific out draws. thanks to a great finish in the rookie freeroll i had around 300 dollars, and went to some 1/2 tables with 40 dollars. Whenever i hit the top pair with a good kicker, i would raise it all in to prevent people from chasing hands. the problem is some guy has the top pair with a lower kicker, calls my all in, and hits his kicker. This acually happened 5 times in a 30 minute time frame once. but eventutally, the out draws became a little less frequent, and yesterday, when i was at a 5/10 table, i bought in with 100 dollars, got it up to 250 dollars, had pocket jacks, someone hit top pair of 10's i bet he raised all in, i called, and he hit his kicker. that one cost me 500 dollars. and i was down to $5.50 at a 5/10 table. but i won 2 hands back to back, and eventally turned those 5 dollars into 920. eventally, you forget about all the bad beats. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, jaustin, 13. Dec 2003 11:20 | ||
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| It could be one of two things: 1) Bad run of luck 2) You said you make small errors. These can add up. All it takes is eliminating one or two an hour and you'll go from being a losing to winning player. If you have PokerTracker, you can use the replay hand feature and see if you can spot errors that have beencosting you. Of course, if you can't find more many errors - refer to reason one. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, timmer, 13. Dec 2003 11:23 | ||
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| I read stuff like this all the time. Ive been winning X for 30 hours 60 hours 100 hours but for the last 10 hours 30 hours Ive been losing Y. Guys, this is a long term game and 100 hours is barely a blip on the radar of your poker life. you need to play for THOUSANDS of Hours to get a fair Idea of where your at. A few thousand hours should give you a modest Idea of how good / bad a player you really are. Newbies have to come to terms with losing for short terms ( like 100 or even 200 hours) If all you got is a few hundred hours in your data base your basically still guessing. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, iceman5, 13. Dec 2003 12:55 | ||
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| Timmer, Ive heard that alot and Im not sure thats necessarily correct but lets assume it is. So if a rookie player said that hes played 80 hours (online thats about 4000-5000 hands) and that hes averaging LOSING 1.2BB / hr, would you advise him to keep playing because he doesnt know if he stinks or not yet with that small a sample? I would advise that guy to get a new hobby because if he cant at least break even after that long that he is pretty bad. I would agree with you if my results were all over the map. If I was way up one day and way down the next. My variance seems to me to be very low. I dont have my numbers in front of me but hypothetically, if I have (10) 2000 hand groupings and every one of them has a result of between +3.0BB/HR and +3.7BB/HR. And then my next (10) 2000 hand groupings are ALL between -0.2BB/Hr and -1.4BB/Hr, then I would say that there has been some definate change in events. Either the playing style has changed or something. Now these are extreme examples and thats not what has happened to me but my point is that I dont think the variance in poker is that extreme. Now I could see a pro winning 1.6BB/Hr for 6 months and then only 0.9 for 6 months. But that is nowhere near what Im talking about. I think part of my problem is that my sessions are too short. I can usually only play for an hour or 2 at a time. Its easy to lose several sessions in a row if they are that short. When I am able to play for 4-6 hours, I rarely lose. The other day I won 2 out 111 hands and had enough and quit (only played 9 outside the blinds). The next day I won a little. The next day I won 2 out of 80 hands and one was a blind steal. I know, I know 80 hands means nothing. But string 2 months of this crap together and it takes a toll on you mentally which cant help your game. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, timmer, 13. Dec 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Many well know good players have had losing YEARS . Many have gone BROKE. 4000 or 8000 hands is nothing statistically speaking. ( didn't say this hypothetical player couldn't use some help with his game as he undoubtedly does . We all could stand improvement within our game.) To base your assumptions about being a winning or losing player on a hundred or so hours on line or off is bordering on foolish. Besides that's really not the point . All of us, even the hypothetical among us, should spend quite a bit of time studying the game regardless if we happen to be winners or losers at some particular time. The difference is the winners study and play a good game most of the time the losers don't. If you said to me I'm a loser at poker and I don't know why I'd say you need to study more about the game ( our game, our opponents game, the intricacies of the particular game) and align your self against less skilled opponents. If you do this the remainder is simply a product of variance ( or you might be getting cheated) . | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, Barry T, 13. Dec 2003 23:39 | ||
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| Hi. This is the way gambling works. If you are going to play, you are going to lose. Sometimes for a long time. My longest losing streak at low limits lasted 3 months at 3-6/6-12. I tried everything. Took time off, read books, played loose, played tight, only played AA, KK, QQ and Ak, tried to play down, didn't matter. If the cards say you are going to lose, that's that. It happens to everyone, it is happening to you, and it will happen again. You really do not have enough time to tell how good you are vs the games, but even if your data were accurate over three or more years (like mine were), you can still lose lots of money in lots of sessions over lots of times in a row. This is the hobby you have chosen. Look. If you flip a fair coin a hundred million times, you would expect heads and tails to come out fairly colse (obviously not exact.) Sometime in there , though, you will probably find a streak of over 100 heads or 100 tails. If yu were betting the other way, you feel awful unlucky if you walked into that streak. But it happens. If your AK keeps losing to AT, you are doing fine. Just be sure you are not having selective memory and not counting the times when the other guy's AK beat your AT. Keep youir head and ride it out. Unless knitting is starting to sound good. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, Mikewad, 14. Dec 2003 03:30 | ||
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| I guess thats why they call it gambling. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, Barry T, 14. Dec 2003 08:10 | ||
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| Hi. This is the way gambling works. If you are going to play, you are going to lose. Sometimes for a long time. My longest losing streak at low limits lasted 3 months at 3-6/6-12. I tried everything. Took time off, read books, played loose, played tight, only played AA, KK, QQ and Ak, tried to play down, didn't matter. If the cards say you are going to lose, that's that. It happens to everyone, it is happening to you, and it will happen again. You really do not have enough time to tell how good you are vs the games, but even if your data were accurate over three or more years (like mine were), you can still lose lots of money in lots of sessions over lots of times in a row. This is the hobby you have chosen. Look. If you flip a fair coin a hundred million times, you would expect heads and tails to come out fairly colse (obviously not exact.) Sometime in there , though, you will probably find a streak of over 100 heads or 100 tails. If yu were betting the other way, you feel awful unlucky if you walked into that streak. But it happens. If your AK keeps losing to AT, you are doing fine. Just be sure you are not having selective memory and not counting the times when the other guy's AK beat your AT. Keep youir head and ride it out. Unless knitting is starting to sound good. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, iceman5, 14. Dec 2003 08:38 | ||
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| I know everyone gets tired of someone crying when they lose..BUT Im gonna do it anyway. After reading all these responses I calmed down. I played a SNG and came in 2nd. Got up this morning and decided to play $1/$2 and not worry about results..just play solid poker. I fold the first 10 hands. I get AQ of spades and raise. Get 2 callers. Flop comes A44 rainbow. I bet, they both call. Turn is a 6 (second diamond) I bet ane guy calls. River is another diamond. I bet he raises. He has 89 of diamonds. 8 hands later I get QQ UTG. I raise and get one caller. Flop is 942 rainbow. I bet he calls. Turn is 8 (2nd spade). I bet he raises I reraise he caps. River is another spade. He had 56 spades. Over and over and over again. I played 60 hands and won 1 from the BB. The streak is OVER. Because I quit playing limit. Being outdrawn happens to everyone but its happened to me everytime Ive had a good hand for a long long time now. I know it will turn around but its taken the fun out of playing limit for me. I play because I like poker not to get rich. So when the fun is gone so am I. I'll stick to NL. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, Aisthesis, 14. Dec 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I think that's really the best attitude--play what you're having fun at. As well as timmer's note about improving your game whether winning or losing. While I've never played limit holdem, one thing that's got to happen a lot more there is getting drawn out, since you don't have the leverage to create horrible odds on draws. But even in NL it's just going to happen: Last night I had KK in a SNG, raise and get an all-in caller who has KQs with short stack. He gets a straight, and all of a sudden I've gone from medium-large stack to pretty small one. But may payback for that bad beat was in the final heads-up, which started at even stacks but with quite large blinds since the tourney had lasted for quite a while. I'm in BB, opponent completes, I check with T7. Flop comes T96. I bet pot, opponent calls (which does worry me somewhat). Turn comes A. I go ahead and bet pot again, remembering that the pre-flop limp looked very un-aceish to me. Opponent raises to all-in (which isn't a whole lot more at this stage due to the blinds--I'm almost completely crippled if I fold), I call. He turns over AA!!!! I congratulate him on his win as the river comes an 8, completing my straight! So I win the tourney. Anyhow, the whole point is that for every bad beat (and I had been getting a bunch of them before that final hand--the KK vs. KQs was just one example out of quite a few the last couple of days), you'll eventually also get a lucky win if you give yourself the opportunity. | ||
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| Re: Im at the end of my rope, NewSchool, 15. Dec 2003 07:48 | ||
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| to put it plain and simple: LIMIT SUCKS, DONT PLAY IT, IT IS A CHASE GAME. having people's bets limited to a certain amount allows people to chase their @ss off, and they dont pay much for not getting their chase. If you were playing NL cash, then you wouldve raised that guy enough to have him fold on the flop. I CANNOT stand limit, and I stopped playing it about 7 months ago. I only play NL cash and I do well at it. To me, making big raises, and putting people to a decision for their chips is the ONLY WAY TO PLAY POKER. Just my opinion. STICK WITH NO LIMIT. Watch the 2003 WSOP, and Nguyen's 8 3 off suit raise, "Thats no limit baby!" | ||
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