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Server Time: 11/20/2008 7:27:30 PM PACIFIC |
 Bad Play???, Mike812, 13. Dec 2003 06:32 | ||
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| Playing in a tourney w/. about 500 people. Its down to 200 and I'm at about 78th place. I'm middle stack at my table, and this hand knocks me out. I'm at SB w/ the blinds at 50/100. I have about 4500 left in chips, when the chip leader has about 10,000 raises to 400 UTG. Everyone folds to me when I hold Qc10c. I know that is a serious fold hand, but I figured this was my chance to double up and put a dent in his stack if I hit the flop right. I calle the 350 raise and here came the flop (By the way, he has raised UTG the past 4 hands bc the BB was post and folding, so I thought he was tyring to steal the BB uncontested) Kc,10s,Jc Wow, I had the royal flush, straight, and flush draw with a pair of 10s. I checked to him (wrong play?) and he bet 1000 into a 900 pot. I put him on AK, I didnt think he had AQ because he would have slowplayed it? Am I wrong to think that? I think he overpet the pot if he hit a straight on it sinc eit was heads up. Here was my thinking when he bet 1000. Here is my chance to double up and take the lead, I would have about 3000 left if I just call, so I put him to the test and re-raised all in. The reason I did that was because here are the outs I thought I had. 3 Aces, 4 nines, 7 other clubs, and I figured that if he had AK, a 10 would give me three of a kind so that is 3 tens that can help me. 4+4+7+3= 17 outs 52-4-3= 47 Giving me about 2.5 to 1 which was not good enough pot odds of 2 to 1 to justify a all-in. Unfortunately, he had KK. and the next two cards were a 4 and a 7.. Was this a bad play on my part? I didnt just want to make the money, I wanted to take the chip lead so I could use those chips to steal blinds, etc etc let me know what you guys think mike | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, Bond18, 13. Dec 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Considering that your goals were to not just make the money i feel that your move was not an error. Im not crazy about the call PF but you justified that with some evidence. Its an unfortunate result, but even with his KK you still have quite a few outs to the straight and flush so its really not a bad play IF your not concerned with being out of the money. | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, jaustin, 13. Dec 2003 12:38 | ||
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| If you put him on a steal, you should have re-raised. If not, you should have folded. QTs isn't great and you're out of position. However, since you did play it, I like the flop check-raise. The only hands where you aren't the favorite to win are trips and the made straight - and even then you aren't that far behind (of course against AK you're only a slim favorite). When you have a coin flip situation, I'd rather my opponent be forced to make a difficult call than me. | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, Schuster, 13. Dec 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Yes, bad play. In order for this to be a reasonable strategy, you have to assume that you will double your 4500 stack whenever you hit the flop hard enough to put it all in there. You're risking 350 to do it. Are you going to hit the flop hard enough to put all your chips in more than 13 to 1? No, you aren't, and it's not close either. You hit pretty much your dream flop and still lost to the UTG raiser. UTG raisers usually have strong hands. If you really are in a situation to gamble trying to double up, make sure the implied odds are there before you just throw the chips in. Lee | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, Mike812, 14. Dec 2003 01:13 | ||
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| I know that UTG are usually raising with strong hands..But, keep in mind that the BB was post and folding (he wasnt even playing). the big stack raised the previous 4 hands the same exact amount. No one would call his raise because he was big stack. I know it is not a good idea to mess with the him, but I wanted to a) double up and b) stop him from stealing the BB when I was SB and stealing every other hand he was in.. I was middle stack, and I never had a hand go to showdown while I was in a pot. The big stack was my nemesis at the table, if he wasnt stealing a blind, then I was stealing the pot. I wanted to send a message to him, and at the same time double up. I know pot odds should justify certain calls etc etc but if you play every hand like "theory of poker" states you should then you will never win unless you have acse every hand. I'm sorry but I cant wait for AK, AA, or KK every hand to try to double because half the time I wont even get a call pre-flop, on the flop, the turn, or the river. Its the sneaky hands that double you up, I felt that I had a hand that could take his chip stack. Yes, the odds were not there, but at the same time, how many times have you been outdrawn with AK? Disregarding what standard theory says (who says you have to play by the way they state you should play) I am willing to invest $350 to make a $4000 profit. A) It was heads up, I had no one else to worry about, and B) if he missed the pot, I could have stole it from him anyways. I did get my dream flop, and I am pretty sure if we ran that hand 10 times, I would that hand more than he did. I did not get lucky that exact time, but I'm not trying to barely make the money. I was sitting at around 75th place, and I felt like it was time to make a move. If you disagree with my strategy, or if anyone else disagrees with the way I play then I am very open to criticisms. I am always trying to improve my game, and I will admit that I probably did make a bad play. After reading other posts and yours, I realize that I should have never been in the pot in the first place. But, I feel like poker is not all about what cards you get. There are just some times that you have to send a message to the table that you will not back down when someone raises every other hand. To my defense, I did not play any hands in the previous 2 rounds around the table. All in all, I guess what I am getting at is what is everyones general strategy? I am still trying to get a efficent and consistent way of playing. Playing too tight works well in the beginning rounds, but I do not twant to get blinded away. At the same time, I do not want to play too aggressive and lose my chips either. I think that I am rambling on too much so I will just end the post and see w hat everyone else says Mike | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, LJH, 16. Dec 2003 06:52 | ||
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| MIKE812, YOUR FIRST PLAY WAS TERRIBLE EITHER FOLD OR GO ALL IN. LJH | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, Mike812, 16. Dec 2003 11:28 | ||
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| I do not believe in going all in pre-flop when I have chips. I do not want to risk my chips against the big stack. Why would I invest $4500 to steal a couple hundred? On the other hand, if I was short stack, I do not have a problem going all-in preflop Mike | ||
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| Re: Bad Play???, maniacmath13, 30. Dec 2003 12:57 | ||
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| I dont mind the idea of making sure the big stack doesnt steal blinds, but if i were in your spot, i would have atleast reraised the minimum against him. If he was just trying to steal the blinds, then he would probably fold, or if he reraised you then you could be fairly sure he had a very good hand. And if he just called you would still have to be aware that he probably has a good hand. I just think a reraise would give you a better idea of what you're up against. | ||
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