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Server Time: 8/30/2008 6:54:12 AM PACIFIC |
 How much to raise with JJ?, FlopDaNutz, 11. Dec 2003 05:35 | ||
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| This stired a big argument at a table last night at Party. $100 NLHE table, I have $130, SB and BB had just bought in for $100, a few guys in LP were over $200 and everyone else had about $100 or a little down. I am dealt JJ in MP. UTG and EP limp in for $2 and two fold. Comes to me in late MP and definately am going to raise. How much to raise is the question? Jacks are a very good hand but obviously there are 3 cards better. Chances of someone else holding higher pockets is very slim, but chances of people limping in with Axs KTs QK AJ QT or anything similar is very good. If a A K or Q hits the flop, I need to be able to let go of my hand. I decide to raise $8 to try and drive the Axs out or maybe a KT. Any KQs or AK is obviosly going to call me. Anyone with pocket T's or less I would love a call. Anyway, CO calls, OTB & SB fold, BB calls. UTG tosses his away and EP limper calls as well. We approach the flop 4-handed. Not exactly what I wanted to see. In this case, i think I would want to be heads up or at the most 3-handed with JJ. This way if a high card hits, and EP checks to me, I can attempt a steal. With a $8 raise, I can represent either AA, KK or AKs. The downfall, is that if someone calls and $8 preflop raise, then the probably have one of those cards. It will have to be a pretty strong bluff to get them off their hand. Before I tell you what the flop was and the rest of the story, I wanted to hear a few comments on my play thus far. Some people were saying that a preflop raise with JJ is a very dumb move. I totally disagree, being that you have to get some of the overcards out of the hand. The cut-off and UTG were calling stations and could have had any Axs or something related. Wasn't sure of BB style as he had just sat down. What would you all have done in this postion? And please don't tell me JJ is a limping hand at best like these idiots tried to tell me last night. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, shorn, 11. Dec 2003 05:51 | ||
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| I think the $8 was a fine bet. If anything, i might have made it $10 to go, overbetting the pot slightly. For some reason (nbo theory or math behind it), I have found that people are less comfortable calling $10 preflop than $9. Anyway, if you are going to play here, you definitely wantto limit the field. The worst thing to do would be to limp and then have someone else put in a big big raise behind you where you would have to lay it down without seeing any cards. By raising, you gain a lot of information if someone comes over you and you can lay it down in good conscience. I only limp with JJ in NL from the blinds or maybe late middle with 5 or so players already in (unless I smell weakness and then I put in a pot-sized raise). Limping is a "varying your play" play only IMO with this hand. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, FlopDaNutz, 11. Dec 2003 06:11 | ||
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| I can see either limping with it or way overbetting it every once in a while for exactly that reason(varying play). What these guys were saying was that it was a limping hand every time. $10 may have been a better bet, you're right. And I agree, there is a lot more to a $10 than a $8 besides the $2 :) | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, _And1_, 11. Dec 2003 07:53 | ||
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| Betting 10 as some stated earlier is above the pot and somewhat sweeter as a) ppl understanding potodds and will more likely fold b) betting slightly more wont any diffrence for the punter who cant tell the diffrence on any odds... hell call anyway.. and that s what you want.. Limping might do well to if hitting on flop, but that's aslo depending on the position and the caracter of the table... | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, Bond18, 11. Dec 2003 08:20 | ||
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| I think that both betting and limping is right with JJ, but yes definately go 10 dollars with so many people in with a vulnerable hand like that. It depends on how you want to play it really. If you want to lead out with it and try to take down the pot on the flop (which by betting aggressively with this hand is normally your goal) after getting some action PF then you played it pretty much right. If you want to see if you can flop a set and trap somebody into a monster pot then limping is correct, neither is right or wrong. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, Aisthesis, 13. Dec 2003 23:15 | ||
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| Just to put in my $.02... I agree fully that it can go either way. But I kind of disagree with the desirability of having it something like 3-way. Raising, I'd really rather make it enough to play it heads-up or take the pot down right there. For me, I don't mind at all getting lots of limpers, hence giving great return on investment. True, you risk losing to matching overcards. But the set can really be profitable, and JJ is strong enough that there are a lot of flops on which it is overpair. But the disadvantage, of course, is having to let it go most generally if an overcard shows up. If I raise it, I'd actually like to play it heads-up, hence a pretty big raise, and indeed one that looks like AA, KK or AK. In LP, with a bunch of limpers, I'd at least err on the high side with the raise, since you've already got a pot worth taking down. So, I guess I also agree with the remarks that your raise might have been higher, if that's the way you want to go with it. | ||
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| I would also make a $10 raise, Mark, 11. Dec 2003 10:34 | ||
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| on 11. Dec 2003 05:51 shorn wrote: > I think the $8 was a fine bet. If anything, i might have made it $10 to go, > overbetting the pot slightly. For some reason (nbo theory or math behind it), I have > found that people are less comfortable calling $10 preflop than $9. This has do with psychology. For some reason most people are much more willing to call a $9 bet than a $10 bet. This is the same reason why most cardrooms spread a$4-8 game rather than a $5-10 game. Most people (new and low limit) play much looser when handling $1chips than when handling $5 chips, even though the difference is only $1 or $2 per bet. Because people play much looser, it generates a much bigger pot and rake even though the bets are smaller. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, FlopDaNutz, 11. Dec 2003 08:27 | ||
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| Well I can justify limping in to try and trap someone, but I dont want everyone staying in for the $2 and catching better cards than I even if I hit a set. Why should I allow someone to play 78s for $2 and catch a STR or flush on me when my J hits flop and I lose a lot. I think the raise is the smart play here and will continue to do so in this situation. In case you were interested in what happened, the flop came AJ4 rainbow....beautiful flop for me. EP bet out 10 i raised to $30 and everyone folds but him. Flop is another 4, giving me the boat, he checks to me...i throw in another $30 and I take it down right there. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, Lou Krieger, 11. Dec 2003 11:10 | ||
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| on 11. Dec 2003 08:27 FlopDaNutz wrote: "the flop came AJ4 rainbow....beautiful flop for me. EP bet out 10 i raised to $30 and everyone folds but him. Flop is another 4, giving me the boat, he checks to me...i throw in another $30 and I take it down right there." What about smooth calling the flop, or making a smaller raise? You have a very strong hand, there's not much of a draw out there, and you have an opportunity to trap some opponents who might be calling with second best hands. If a safe card comes on the turn, then you can make a big raise if your opponent bets. You can also make a moderate bet if the hand is checked to you and you'd like to keep callers in until the river, or make a large bet to take away the appropriate odds that may exist on the turn if a turn card that supports a draw comes up. What are your thoughts, FlopDaNutz? Lou Krieger Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" and five other books about poker, at Royal Vegas Poker http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, redsoxasu, 11. Dec 2003 14:15 | ||
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| I agree with Lou on this one. Since the EP players limped in before the flop, it would be near impossible to put them on AA, but very easy to put them on AJ or even AQ. Even if they did have AA, I think it's a horrible play to not raise, due to AA losing valuse with lost of callers. The post flop play definetly should tell you that EP/BB has an A, and not AA. smoothe-calling is I think the best choice especially when he's betting into you. When you make the FH on the turn, he most likely is thinking about a split pot. if you has smoothe called you may have gotten a second bet here and on the river. I think you could've gotten paid off for more. Post flop i would have smooth-called, because you're only worried about 2 Aces, or to running higher cards (K-K, or Q-Q) and those probabilities are low. | ||
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| Re: How much to raise with JJ?, R4, 12. Dec 2003 10:38 | ||
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| If you raise it should be $20 (about 3x the amount in the pot) becasue your goal is to take the pot down before the flop. Weather you raise or just call depends on where you put the other players and where you think they would put you if you raised $20. If you're not sure what hand to put your opponents on and assuming you are not disrespected at the table - I would rasie $20 thinking I woudl either take it down right there or get in heads-up situaction which is much easier to play after the flop. If reraised I know I'm meat and I'm folding not losing more than $20. If called by more than one player I'm mucking if I don't hit a Jack on the flop. | ||
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