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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:07:39 PM PACIFIC |
 KK: Did I need to back down?, Aisthesis, 10. Dec 2003 10:09 | ||
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| This is a hand I lost where I really can't decide if it's just "one of those things" or whether I should have backed of in playing my big pair. It's a $25 NL table, and my main opponent is a decent player with sheriffy tendencies. My table image is presumably pretty tight. Blinds .10/.25 and I raise with KK to 1.00 UTG. I get one caller to my immediate left as well as the button and BB. Pre-flop pot is $4.10. Flop comes 4c 8d Td. So there are possible straight and flush draws out there but no made straight or flush. With the raised overpair, I bet $4.00. Sheriffy player to my left calls, the others fold. So what does he have? I don't think he generally would have stayed on the flush or straight draw to that bet (although it's still a possibility), but he can have a set or something like AT. Possible would also be AdKd with the flush draw and overcards. Turn comes Jh. With the pot now at $12.10, I again bet pot. And the more I think about it, the less I really see an alternative to this bet. If he's got a set (or worse, the straight--but I can't really see him calling my pre-flop raise with Q9 or 97), he's indeed got me beat. But I don't see what else I can do in light of the other possibilities. River brings Jc for a board of 4c 8d Td Jh Jc. The pot is now $35.10 and I have $9.60 left. Here is the only place I can really see an alternative to what I did: namely putting the rest of my stack out there (opponent's stack is roughly the same size). While he thought a long time both on the turn and the river, I don't think there was much of a chance of his folding at that stage. Anyhow, he calls again and turns over 44 for full house fours full of jacks, so I lose. Did I play this correctly or did I need to back down at some point? I'm thinking it probably would have been a good idea to just check on the river, although with that pot, I probably would have had to go ahead and call whatever he bet. I would have felt like a complete idiot not at least seeing whether he might have been calling with just AT--although at that stage I was pretty sure he had something better than that. Would welcome any opinions on how this hand should have been played. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, Formless, 10. Dec 2003 11:32 | ||
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| Preflop you could've limp-reraised if the table was aggressive(I don't like this with KK), or raised to 5xBB if it was loose. Raising 4xBB UTG seems about right in most cases. Betting pot on the flop is questionable. With that many players, you are giving them good implied odds. You could've checked and represented AK, then waited to see what action develops. Or make a bigger bet on the flop. Pot or not, four bucks is still only four bucks, so when you bet it into a field of players, you can expect to get called. When you get called on the flop, I think you still have to bet the turn. I might've put all of my chips in here, the board still isn't too scary. Or you can check the turn and feign weakness to induce a bet from a worse hand. Betting the river was not the best play, but I do this sort of thing all too frequently. In any case, I'd probably go broke with this hand too. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, Aisthesis, 10. Dec 2003 19:48 | ||
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| Hey, thanks for the comments! At this table, I think the 4 BB bet pre-flop was fine. A bigger bet would risk winning nothing more than the blinds (which in this particular case would have been fine but is not my general goal with KK or AA), and the table just wasn't aggressive enough to try the limp-re-raise idea (I did that a bunch right after getting through the appropriate Brunson chapters, but never ended up getting the opportunity to re-raise, so I now reserve it, as you said for tables where I have a very good chance of catching an MP or LP raise). I really like your idea of overbetting the pot on the flop. I've got 3 callers and a very strong overpair. If I had put in $6, or better yet, $8 right there, it would have taken very strong-hearted drawers to stay in the hand. And at that stage, I'm quite happy with the performance of my big pair if everyone just folds. Really, I guess it just goes to show the enormous implied odds a little pair has on flopping a set against a big pair. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, shorn, 11. Dec 2003 05:25 | ||
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| I disgaree that the flop pot bet is questionable. I think it is mandatory. Too many players will come in preflop for a raise with AJ and the like and there is no way you want to give them a free card. Also, what if they were flat calling your preflop raise with QQ? Do you want to give them a free shot to set with an inferior hand? No way. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, Aisthesis, 11. Dec 2003 12:18 | ||
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| What do you think of Formless' idea of overbetting the pot on the flop with an overpair like that? Similarly on this flop with QQ (or possibly JJ) unless one has indications of being up against AA or KK. I like the idea sufficiently that I'm tempted to say that might be the way to go most of the time. In any case, with high pocket pair that holds up as overpair on the flop, the idea is to get the money out there as fast as possible before people can draw on you. Or does overbetting here have some disadvantages I'm not seeing? I'm thinking somewhere between 150% and 200% of pot, and the overpair should hold up enough of the time to allow this--as long as one is also sensitive to scare flops like 3 of one suit or possible made straights. And overbetting should sometimes get a caller holding just top pair. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, shorn, 12. Dec 2003 05:01 | ||
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| I wouldn't go overboard with overbetting the pot on the flop. There isn't that much money in there yet and so I prefer to bet the pot on the flop and give 2 to 1 and then perhaps overbet the turn if a blank comes. I find that with the $'s being small in these games, many players are willing to call let's say $8 into a $4 pot on the flop with two diamonds, but they won't call $24 into a $12 pot on the turn. I agree that you want to give them poor odds, but I would rather wait until the turn to see if the bad card comes before committing too much money. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, shorn, 11. Dec 2003 05:23 | ||
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| I check the river here on the off chance he was calling the flop with overcards and then hit two Jacks. However, since you probably still have to call the river, it might be best to bet it out. 50/50. Otherwise, I like the way you played throughout. Unless he was holding JJ, the first Jack isn't likely to make a hand that can beat you as he probably wouldn't call the flop with Q9. And, on the turn you MUST fire the seconf bullet to protect your hand. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, Bond18, 11. Dec 2003 08:29 | ||
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| Hey Ais, I actually prefer a larger PF bet here. Now im used to party where blinds at that level are 25./50 but i think for 1 dollar at only 25 NL your gonna get to many callers and your KK isn't going to be fully protected. I think at this level people normally don't think "in relation to blinds" but just "how many dollars" so making it 2 (dare i say 3? Griffen your a mad man) might be worth it if you think you'll get some action. I think the rest of the hand you played correctly and you were just pretty screwed after flop. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, Aisthesis, 11. Dec 2003 12:38 | ||
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| In principle I agree with you as to KK itself. The ideal pre-flop bet would in my opinion be enough to "normally" get just one caller. And in this case, if I could have kept the blasted low pair out of there, I would obviously have been much better off. However, I have some reservations on going higher in the context of how I bet some other hands: Basically, I want to keep my AA and KK raises low enough that I can pretty much always make the same initial bet on AK, and occasionally make the same bet on low pairs or suited connectors, and with 4 BB I can still do that. At this table, I think $2 would have been pretty much a toss-up as to whether I got any caller or not--a good thing, I would say, for a KK hand. But I'd like to keep my whole betting style such that observant opponents can never really know whether I'm raising with AA, KK, AK, AXs, 76s or 33. | ||
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| Re: KK: Did I need to back down?, noiseboy, 12. Dec 2003 14:16 | ||
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| I would probably play it just like you did. With the flush draw, it's hard to slow down because he might be drawing. If you change the flop to rainbow, I might see being able to slow down and if the player is tight, being able to lay down the overpair, but it would be difficult. | ||
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