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Server Time: 1/8/2009 7:22:46 AM PACIFIC |
 Is Party Cheating Players??, player, 9. Dec 2003 05:56 | ||
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| I have been reading on many forum sites about PartyPoker rigging the cards to enable the site to draw larger rakes. Making the flops be exceptional for drawing hands which creates a larger pot and in return means a larger rake for the site. Noticed a change in site with winning hands being straights, flush draws and full houses frequently. Players with KK and another with AA while others have oportunity of draws to all be in the hand creating large pots and many bad beats for all. Also I have never seen so many straight flushes in a short period of time except on Party. I am concerned with these findings and the confirmations of the forums online. Is there any explanation of these discoveries? How can players be certain that Party is and will remain a legit online poker site? | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, hokie95, 9. Dec 2003 06:43 | ||
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| Yeah, I know. This other day, I was playing 3-6 and was dealt K-10 in the BB. The flop came down K-K-J. The player on the button bet out into me, of course I called,a s did a few others. Then a blank on the turn. He bet into me again, I raised this time, he reraised and then I capped it (finally driving out the players between us). River is a K. He bets out, I reraise, he's all-in with the last bet. Wouldn't you know it? He turns up JJ. Sure, I won this one, but clearly this was an effort to drive up the rake. Damn that Ameristar St. Charles Casino in St. Louis. I think they rigged the site to drive up the rake. That's poker man. Learn to love it or quit. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Flatout_Mainiac, 9. Dec 2003 09:26 | ||
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| So what you are saying is that a something that should happen 2% of the time (drawing the case K) should never happen and if it does it is because a site is rigged to make an extra buck? Doesn't make much sense to me. BTW, the same thing happend to me last weekend with a flop of AA9, I had pocket nines and the case A hit on the river. It's just poker. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, hokie95, 9. Dec 2003 10:05 | ||
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| Go back to my original post. Then scroll down. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, LJH, 9. Dec 2003 13:16 | ||
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| hokie 95 i don't see it that way at all.ljh | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, hokie95, 9. Dec 2003 13:50 | ||
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| on 9. Dec 2003 13:16 LJH wrote: > hokie 95 i don't see it that way at all.ljh OK, I'll say this one more time, and I'll say it loudly: MY POST WAS SARCASTIC. PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF MY POST. And, LJH, are your goals to (1) post in every thread regardless of topics; and (2) make as little sense as possible. I mean, that's nice that you didn't "see it that way at all," but that doesn't make a lick of sense. At least when you were in all caps you made some sense. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Candide, 9. Dec 2003 14:09 | ||
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| Hokie, if it makes you feel better I did get the joke :) | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, guinnessman, 9. Dec 2003 14:19 | ||
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| I got it too, but I have played at the Ameristar....got my Aces over 6's beat by 4 6's....on a kill pot too....and a third player had Jacks over the 6's...maybe they are rigged...they were using one of those shuffle machines that disappears into the table. I think they might have a midget in there fixing the deck....LOL Guinnessman | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Flatout_Mainiac, 9. Dec 2003 19:12 | ||
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| hehe....you got me on that one. Must be the French in me. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Blade, 9. Dec 2003 07:55 | ||
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| see the 8 billion other threads on this subject. Can we move onto something else now? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, player, 9. Dec 2003 09:10 | ||
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| Maybe there are 8 billion threads because there are that many people who are concerned about this subject. Why don't you post and read the topics you are interested in and leave the bashing on this topic alone. Move along BLADE and keep your readings to your interests. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Blade, 9. Dec 2003 09:37 | ||
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| Fine then, internet poker is rigged and it is cheating you. Why are you still playing? They are doing this even though the rake is capped and most pots reach the max regardless of what cards come. But they decided to risk there entire business model and a a potentially huge law suit just for fun. Holdem is a suck out game deal with it or move on but I don't what joining up with a whinning group of conspiracy theorist does. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, noiseboy, 9. Dec 2003 10:33 | ||
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| Yeah, like the other day I had KQs and the flop comes with an AJ of the same suit, guess what the turn was? It was a T of my suit. Then we cap it to the river because the other guy has JJ. The flops must be juiced! I mean a royal str8 flush vs a full house, cmon!??! Oh wait, that happened at a B&M casino. B&M is rigged! (Satire) My point is that weird unlikely things happen in any poker game, sometimes you even make a royal and catch someone with a full house or quads. Luck is streaky by nature. Sometimes you will have a run of ten bad beats in a row, but that doesn't mean the game is rigged. In Vegas, sometimes some lucky sucker will win millions in the slot machines despite the odds being a gazillion to one, but that's just part of the deal. It's pretty unlikely that any of us were ever even born, but here we are. Another thing to consider is that Party Poker is a huge cash cow for whoever owns it, it's an extremely high profit, low overhead enterprise that doesn't have any interest in screwing the players. They make money regardless of who wins a pot, so why risk an incredibly good thing that they have going for a few extra bucks? There may be slight differences from the random number generator than having an actual dealer shuffling actual cards, but these should be negligible. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, player, 9. Dec 2003 11:20 | ||
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| Thanks noiseboy for your comments. It just did not seem realistic and reading forums I believed the posts. Playing 2-4 and won $1500 since playing July 2003. And just the past two weeks lost $900 back with all bad beats. I know there are many maniacs in the Party site. They have gotten the best of me the past couple weeks. You question everything when this happens. How can a game go to such crap so fast and when will it turn around? | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Robert M, 9. Dec 2003 11:34 | ||
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| Last night lost A high flush to straight flush. -$100 in one hand. Two weekends ago I had 4 of a kind twice in 5 minutes. The next day, had 4 of a kind twice in 5 minutes again. Is PP cheating? HELL NO! Getting a straight flush is as common as getting Kh10d8s3c3s. Check the odds, of course there is an identical probability for any 5 specific cards. I just believe that the software needed to create these so-called juiced hands would be way to intricate and sensitive to discovery. And a company as large as Party Poker makes enough money without having to do this unnecessary risk. Think about it, if a person feels like playing poker, they will play, there's not much enticement needed. Just deal baby, they will come. ------------------------R | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Smokey27, 9. Dec 2003 14:23 | ||
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| Dude, winngin big and then lsoing alot big is a sign you lost your edge. It happened to me, i went from 50 to 1500 back to 100. I accpeted the fact that my game had gotten sloppy. I took it into the basement, researched and practiced with wilsons and came back a month later. That losing streak was the best thing that happened to me my game is much improved and i have gone from 100 to 1200 at 3bb an hour on average at 2/4 on party's cite. Dude get pokertracker pay the $40 bones and gather stats on yourself and others it will prove to you that it is not 'rigged'. In my opinion you will never be a winning player if you blame losses on anything but yourself, cheaters, cheating sites, and bad beats, are the concepts of losing players. Decide now who to blame if it isn't yourself keep your day job because you will need it to pay for all the 'bad beats' you will take playing poker | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, noiseboy, 10. Dec 2003 16:12 | ||
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| I had a several week downswing at UB, then made it all back in one weekend playing NL, but I know it's hard not to let it affect you. I started getting paranoid thinking every draw was going to hit against me, and the funny thing is for those few weeks I would've been absolutely right! Also remember that if it seems like you are always getting sucked out it probably means you are playing correctly. Bobby Baldwin pointed this out long before the internet was even invented. If you are a good player, you have more bad beats because it is more likely that you have the best hand going in, and you should be thankful for those beats, because that means that people are in your games PUTTING MONEY IN WITH THE WORST OF IT! It's really, really hard to focus on this, however, when you are in one of the downswings and all of the bad beats are so horrendous. Try taking a break of about a week, reread a few of your favorite poker books, and it will help you get back your mojo. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, LJH, 9. Dec 2003 13:15 | ||
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| player, if you believe party is crooked, then stop playing there. ljh | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Denver, 9. Dec 2003 13:30 | ||
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| I suggest that all the conspiracy theorist band together and do some research. It's far to easy to try and rationalize the "induce the max rake" theory without ever having to try and justify it statistically. It wouldn't take very many players a very long time to watch thousands of hands, even tens of thousands of hands to find statistical outliers or any kind of correlation between hole cards and subsequent board cards. In fact, I defy any of the paranoid minority to come up with even a shred of proof using a remotely acceptable sample size of hands. I am pretty sure it can't be done, but I'm even more sure it WON'T be done because these people just want someone or something to blame for their losses. What I find most comical is that you read about how good a guy is playing when his win totals are way above norm, but how bad other players (or in extreme cases, how rigged the software is) when his losses are above norm. It's the "I win because of me and I lose because of them" attitude. I don't wish to deny anyone the right to question authority, but the bolder the accusation the more it must be tempered and substantiated with factual data. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Russ, 9. Dec 2003 13:55 | ||
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| Ok....Let me just start by saying that those people who claim that "favorable rake" deals are not possible are as crazy as those saying that it is happening. It is sensible for anyone wagering over the internet to be cautious of potential fraudulence. It is also wise to understand the algorithmic design of casino software application before automatically assuming that a Price Waterhouse certificate is a "guarantee" that the house is playing fairly. I hope that you all do remember a company named Arthur Andersen, the world's largest auditing company who had a relatively handsome niche in offshore gambling prior to the whistle being blown. As to the logic applied to the applications, there are rudimentary concepts that an auditor is to look for when examining casino software. Most of these concepts all focus on the probability, and their statements of fairness only focus on there being an equal probability of a 1/52 chance of any given card to be dealt at any given time. What's important to note about casino software design, specifically poker software, is that variables can be adjusted at any time by even a layman. Who is to say that once Price Waterhouse leaves and collect their $1500 an hour, Party Poker or any other site for that matter changes the variables so that rake collected is to increase. I sincerely believe and hope this does not occur, but to insinuate that this is not possible is ignorant, naive, and flat out not true. As for the statistics to merit this, it's clearly impossible to do this without tracking results over many many millions of instances as this is where the slightest adjustment would begin to become transparent. It's important to trust enough to go online, play for some money and have fun. I would not, however, wager even close to what I play for in a B&M room. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Smokey27, 9. Dec 2003 14:33 | ||
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| Most sites do not make their own software. They outsource it from a software firm that makes gambling software, I believe the company is global media, they make the software for most sites. Most conspiracy theories show a lack of knowedge about the industry, The people that own these sites outsource everything, the software, the customer service hell even the payment functions. Party has what 10,000 players on average. At 50 hands per hour and only $1 in rake per hand that is $50,000 an hour. That is over a million a day in rake, and is a very conservative estimate. It is 1000 times more likely that party lies on their canadian tax forms than attempts to crack software they didn't create and do not operate for there benefit. If you don't do an hour of research (it took 5 minutes for this post) You end up looking like a typical idiot who speaks before he thinks. This whole thread should be moved to the bad beats section where all the losers should hang out. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, palman, 9. Dec 2003 15:05 | ||
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| And the rakes are maxed out at a low enough figure that most hands would be maxed out no matter what the cards that come out are, they don't need to "create" full houses against straight flushes, because those hands simply increase the pot well beyond the rake maximum, which give party no benefit whatsoever. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Palinya, 9. Dec 2003 19:57 | ||
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| Party Poker is based in Canada? Okay that's it, I'm convinced it's rigged now! You can't trust those Canadians. | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Boftx, 9. Dec 2003 16:08 | ||
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| Some quick math shows that Party simply has no incentive to do anything like this. Right now there are about 19,000 players on 2500 tables. A quick count shows over 500 of these tables to be real-money HE. They are dealing a little over 2000 hands/min. So, let's assume the average is 400 HE tables going 24/7 and about 300 hands per min *at those tables only*. A reasonable estimate on the rake would be $1/table since not all tables generate a rake or hit the max. That gives us $18,000/hr from rakes on the HE tables alone. And remember, I am using a conservative number for hands/min. As for the freqeuncy of big hands, lets take an average of 1000 tables active 24/7 with about 1000 hands per min over ALL types of tables. I remember seeing the odds for a Royal Flush being something like 35,000:1, so you would expect to see at least 2 or even 3 Royal Flushes/hr show up somewhere. OF COURSE you're going to see a lot of smaller hands where you have this many hands being dealt! You don't see the monsters that often in a B&M simply because they can't deal the cards as fast or have as many tables as an online room does. Heck, when UB was paying out big-hand jackpots it would invariably go to a Royal Flush that showed up within the first 30min of each 90min window. My "wife" (just another 4 days) won it once on a penny table. And now that I have posted this thread should most likely die off :-) Jim | ||
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| Re: Is Party Cheating Players??, Carson Horton, 21. Dec 2003 20:11 | ||
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| So if your suppositions regarding probability are correct and I have no reason to believe thet are not...Then what you are saying is that when I am sitting at an online poker table trying to calculate the probability of the various outcomes to the hand I am playing in, that I need to base my assumptions on the fact that somewhere on that site within the last 24 hours, fifty or a hundred thousand hands have been dealt and that the possibility is therefore greater that I might see a 35000-1 Ace high Royal flush? I am not concerned about what happened at the other 2499 tables in the last day or two...What I want to be able to do is base my assessment on the cards being dealt at the table I am sitting at...Sure if the cards are dealt 50000 times I should expect to see that 35000-1 R/F once or more during that sequence of 50000 hands. But I'm not talking about 50000 hands...I'm talking about sitting at a table for four hours and beaing dealt 250 hands and seeing a R/F or two, a handful of straight flushes, six or seven sets of quads, multiple hands making high carded flush draws over and over again, multiple hands making high carded full houses over and over again, all four A's and/or K's, Q's etc... hitting the board during the same hand over and over again...maybe that's a possibility when the permutation involves 50-100,000 hands but that is not what the individual player sees, just as they would not see it in a live game. There is no reason that each game cannot be controlled by its own chip generating these so-called "random" hands. Whether that game is dealt 70 hands or 110 hands per hour the outcome of the individual deal should be germaine to THAT particular table, not the outcome of a random sampling of 50000 hands being dealt at every table on the site. I can sit down and deal ten handed Hold'em for hours and after several hundred hands I may or may not see a R/F or a set of quads at all! maybe I will, maybe I won't, but the point is it IS random! At these online tables it is the norm, not the exception. The only reason that I can see for why an online room would desire to manipulate the deal would be that due to the marked increase in competition recently, they are sure to be battling for market share and if players think they have a better chance of drawing these miracle hands at one site rather than another then they might be more inclined to play at a particular site. Whether that is the case or not, I cannot be made to believe that the deals that I have seen come off at the online poker rooms where I have played reflect the likely outcome of a live poker game. | ||
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