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Server Time: 12/1/2008 4:39:01 PM PACIFIC |
 25-50 hand VERY INTERESTING situation (in my opinion), eugeneel, 8. Dec 2003 02:04 | ||
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| This is an argument me and another player I know who plays very high stakes. We were having on this chat over AIM. The game mentioned is online at pokerroom 25-50 5 handed the people who had the AA and JJ in this hands were both good players. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF MY CALL WAS A GOOD ONE OR A BAD ONE. Eugeneel: had some guy hit one outer on river East remix: yeah that was me Eugeneel: for 900 pot East remix: the set over set right Eugeneel: no Eugeneel: flop was Eugeneel: 232 2 diamonds East remix: sorry Eugeneel: and JJ won Eugeneel: with J on river East remix: so thats a 2 outer Eugeneel: I had 10j Eugeneel: of diamonds East remix: ah East remix: so you were only ahead on the turn East remix: how is that a bad beat Eugeneel: true Eugeneel: 1 outer for capped pot all the way besider river East remix: that mustve been really tough to get over Eugeneel: is bad beat for me East remix: but you were only best on the turn East remix: plus what are you doing in the hand with j10 if its capped preflop Eugeneel: yeah I played wel though Eugeneel: got trapped East remix: how .... Some arguing about odds, then he tell me that J10 sucks in 4 way pot and I tell him a lot of worse hands hands are usually in that pot. He asks me "like what" East remix: normally the morons with J10 make it 4way Eugeneel: hands that are much worse off then my 10 J suioted East remix: no Eugeneel: yeah East remix: like what? East remix: 8-9? Eugeneel: AK-Aq, 77-1010 East remix: hahah AK???? Eugeneel: eh Eugeneel: AJ Eugeneel: mistyping East remix: 10-10 is worse off than J-10? East remix: you have to catch gin on the flop Eugeneel: against strong players? Eugeneel: 10 10 worse Eugeneel: I think East remix: you get trapped too easily with J-10 East remix: flop comes J23 East remix: you cant let go Eugeneel: nah Eugeneel: u can East remix: well then you'er playing for a striaght or a flush East remix: so you migh as well have 2-3 Eugeneel: 23 makes less straights East remix: ok 5-6 Eugeneel: yeah East remix: if you want to put 4 bets in on a suited connector East remix: which is what J-10 is East remix: you're welcome in my game anytime Eugeneel: heh Eugeneel: I got trapped East remix: haha i dont see how Eugeneel: u already know that East remix: i think you made a dumb call and hoped to get lucky Eugeneel: ok stupid conversation East remix: then you got lucky but someone got luckier Eugeneel: I know I got trapped East remix: BIRNBAUMNMT TAPPED YOU OUT East remix: yeah well preflop checkraises are a good way to trap Eugeneel: I forget what did it Eugeneel: someone must of donne it with AA then East remix: yeah Eugeneel: that seems more logical Eugeneel: So AA limps 1st East remix: very logical Eugeneel: I call East remix: how exactly do you checkraise preflop? Eugeneel: JJ raises Eugeneel: AA reraises East remix: so you dump East remix: limpings bad anyway East remix: i never limp Eugeneel: I call (maybe loose) Eugeneel: and jj caps East remix: yeah each call was bad, the 2nd obviously worse Eugeneel: the thing is Eugeneel: actually Eugeneel: 2nd call was good Eugeneel: so [censored] off East remix: hahah no way! Eugeneel: cause East remix: calling 2 bets cold Eugeneel: I have everyone figured Eugeneel: I KNOW that checkraiser has aces East remix: ok, well you dont know Eugeneel: maybe kk East remix: but its likely he has a big pair East remix: yes East remix: so pat yourself on the back, you got away cheap Eugeneel: so it is so easy to play it postflop East remix: and fold East remix: apparently not Eugeneel: well East remix: i mean, the value isnt there Eugeneel: not unless u hit good flop East remix: this is limit Eugeneel: and dream turn East remix: you have no implied odds Eugeneel: yeah I do East remix: do you know how hard it is for J10 to beat AA Eugeneel: cause East remix: your odds are nowhere near what you're putting in the call Eugeneel: I kniow what everyone has East remix: not to mention the other guys in the pot can beat you East remix: hahahah how do you nkow what the raiser has? Eugeneel: no Eugeneel: heh East remix: you cant assume he has JJ Eugeneel: Aces is enough Eugeneel: to know East remix: plus there's a mystery 4th guy East remix: right, to drop the hand East remix: you're up against AA which kills you East remix: plus 2 unknown hands that you have beat East remix: have to beat East remix: in order to win the pot East remix: J10 is a big big loser there Eugeneel: dude A2 had J 10 beat Eugeneel: does it mean that... East remix: not really Eugeneel: A2 is better here? East remix: its not showdown poker East remix: no Eugeneel: there we go East remix: but AA East remix: kills you Eugeneel: I had JJ beat in this hand East remix: only on the turn Eugeneel: cause we both facing AA Eugeneel: no the whole way East remix: uh no Eugeneel: odds are Eugeneel: I will winn much mopre often than the JJ East remix: oh i see what youre saying Eugeneel: against AA Eugeneel: than he Eugeneel: will East remix: right East remix: but guess who's gonna win the most East remix: AA East remix: you're still losing money East remix: plus you dont know he has JJ East remix: his hand hurts yours a lot too Eugeneel: yeah but 90% of the time Eugeneel: I fold flop Eugeneel: and most time I pay only 3 bets Eugeneel: to see flop East remix: right so you throw away 4 bets East remix: only 3 bets? Eugeneel: well Eugeneel: AA made it 3 bets East remix: so 10% of the time you play after the flop East remix: how many of those pots will you win? East remix: 1/3? Eugeneel: and win HUGE pot East remix: so 3.3% East remix: given 3 bets each time, plus what you can lose after the flop East remix: thats already 30 bets you lose the 90% of the time Eugeneel: hey East remix: youre not making 50 bets+ the times you win the hand Eugeneel: I am gonna post this hand on 2+2 East remix: its a big loser East remix: those people are morons Eugeneel: mason will give me good advice Eugeneel: they know odds East remix: im intersted to see what they say Eugeneel: it is an interesting hand Eugeneel: cause I can see ur point East remix: maybe East remix: i think its clear cut Is it a clear fold preflop? (by the way, feel free to congratulate me on my biggest win ever last night at the gaming club, 25-50 3-7 handed over 3 hr period, won 4.1k!) Really looking forward to reading these replies, -Eugene | ||
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| Re: 25-50 hand VERY INTERESTING situation (in my opinion), Schuster, 8. Dec 2003 02:18 | ||
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| Yes, it's a clear fold if you know the other guy to have AA or KK. A small or medium pocket pair would be worth a call in this spot because you will not have to invest anymore on the flop to hit your "draw", since it's a one shot deal. With a JTs, the times you have to pay to get there with your hand and don't will turn this into long term loser. Not to mention the fact that even if you catch that J-3-2 flop, now you have the odds to chase your 5 outer because you wouldn't know the other guy has JJ. As a side note, it's much easier to follow posts if they're written in a narrative format. Hand histories and instant messenger conversations are clumsy and difficult to follow most of the time. Lee | ||
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| Re: 25-50 hand VERY INTERESTING situation (in my opinion), ADAM THE EXPERT, 8. Dec 2003 03:57 | ||
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| Lee, you seem very intelligent, but Adam the expert is afraid your missing the boat, on this one. In actuality, J10s is a better hand to have, when up against AA, than even KK !!!!!!! And certainly the 77. If J10s goes to the river, it will win about 18 percent of the time, the kk, 16 percent, and the 77, only 14 percent. But, who the #$^#$% says that the 77 will be able to call all the way, to the river!! When you put in four bets, and the pot is large, the last thing in the world you want, is to sheepishly have to fold, on the flop. This is where the power of the good suited connector, comes in The J10s, have more than twice the chance of hitting a good flop, than the 77!!! sure, when the 77 hits, it will have a set, but sets can be beaten, and when up against two pairs that will call all the way, it's really not so hard to beat a small set, especiall if their is a third hand out there, with a live draw Good flop defined as: open end, or double belly straight draw, flush draw, two pair, trips, or made straight or flush. Add those all up, and you will see that the chances of the Jack ten hitting a suitable flop, are over 1 in 4. But, the big differenct between J10s and 77, is the times that the jack ten hits a tiny piece of the flop, yet still enough to call for the pot odds. something like, 9 2 3, with one of your suit. sure, making a winner here is a long shot, but with 16-1 pot odds, it makes if worth a call, knowing that if you pick up an 8, Q, or suited card, the pot odds, will more than justify a call. Remember, people are going to beat you, in this manner, when you have the "ant antennas" so you must have some "miricle" beats of your own. The trick is knowing which "longshot" draws are appropriate, and when they are appropriate. Jack Ten suited, RULES, 77 is the real loser!!! | ||
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| Re: 25-50 hand VERY INTERESTING situation (in my opinion), ADAM THE EXPERT, 8. Dec 2003 03:38 | ||
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| eugeneel, at least when Adam the Expert makes a long post, I make it interesting!!! Geeeeze. who wants to listen to the non stop diatrab, from the idiot who thinks that J10s, is not suitable, in a four way pot!!.. As long as you know that you have to make two pair or better, to win the pot, it's ok to play this hand. In fact, if you know that you're up against a bigger pair, J10s is actually a better hand, than any other pair!!!! As far as "may as well play a 23" This just shows the total ignorance, of the person making this statement. One of the main strenghts of J10 s, against a big pair, is the tremendous action you receive, when you make a straight!! hands like AK, AQ, AA KK, are going to go to war with you, when you flop a straight, as they will make something BIG, which they woul'dnt, with a flop of 4 5 6. I looked at this game, briefly, but since I have absolutly NO respect for Pokerroom, didn't consider playing. Get real!!! No player notes, they have knowledge of how to structure the Chinese poker, I just can't recommend this site. But, if there is enough action, to produce a 4K plus win, Adam the expert might give it a second look. Now, Adam the Expert, does not suggest just playing any old hand, but the notion that you know what they have, and they don't know what you have, can make up for the fact that they started ahead. Just don't get caught, calling down, when the flop comes "J 2 3" if you have a backdoor fflush draw, you may see the turn, but if not, you should be prepared to dump it, Unless the pot is so large, that your 5- out draw, has the correct pot odds. "All pots are not won, with big pairs" A.t.e. | ||
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| Re: 25-50 hand VERY INTERESTING situation (in my opinion), Jordan, 8. Dec 2003 15:03 | ||
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| I was actually surprised about this too Lee. I know you don't always want to get yourself into capped pots with all sorts of hands but from what I've read and seen J10s is the PREMIUM drawing hand. It ALWAYS makes the nut straight and if you are likely playing against big pairs (i guess you could be up against AKs or KQs in which case your flushes are dead), the straight + flush potential i would think makes this a good hand to draw with in some capped pots. I would also think as Adam points out that it would play better than the 2 outer the small pair must make. Then again I'm a newbie. | ||
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