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Server Time: 1/8/2009 9:29:11 AM PACIFIC |
 raising to drive out blinds, Blade, 7. Dec 2003 19:26 | ||
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| I am K10s on the button. There are two limpers to me. K10s is a very marginal hand for me and I don't usually play it but with only two limpers and on the button I decide its worth it. I contemplate limping but then I think because the limpers are typical LL loose players and there is some value for me to fold off the blinds preventing some freak two pair if I pair the K. Is my thinking pretty much correct here? I have been struggling with being too aggessive lately and would appreciate some feed back. | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, Smokey27, 7. Dec 2003 19:56 | ||
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| without information on the players involved I would just limp. If the two limpers are weak tight and the blinds are very tight rasing would be a good idea. The problem is that for me king ten is a trash hand. If you are up against tight, solid players the two limpers probably have you beat, and you will need to use position to bully them out. Weak players limp in early with low suited connectors, I would put solid players on kq, Aj, 88, 77, etc. all those hands are much better than king ten. ALso why raise when you may hit your str8 or flush and a blind may build a smaller str8 or flush. I think with two unpaired cards you flop twopair about 2.5% of the time. A raise figures to knock the small blind out if anyone. So you raise, and have a 2.5% less chance an opponent flops two pair. You have a 30% chance of flopping a pair, why pay double to build a one parir hand with medium to good kicker? Also a raise builds the pot, say the flop comes 10 6 4 offsuit after you raised. Assume you knocked out the sb so there is now 8.5 small bets. One of the solid players has AQ,kq,qj,Aj etc. after it is checked to you on the flop and you bet they are recieving proper odds to draw to their overcards( they also have the added outs of a runner runner nut str8), if they think they are good when they hit. If you dont raise and get that flop the players with two overcards are only getting 5-6 to 1 depending on the small blind and may not chase a small pot with mere overcards. | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, mkpoker, 7. Dec 2003 20:01 | ||
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| I would not have raised here. If you flop a draw (either str8 or flush), you'll want additional callers in the pot to pay you off down the road. And if the flop comes either K or T high, leaving you with top pair, your hand will likely be better than the blinds, anyhow. Also, by limping you save yourself 1 SB when the flop misses you totally and you decide to fold (and this will happen most of the time). It's true that limping introduces the possibility of "freak" hands that benefit the BB, but I think it's a risk worth taking here. As you noted, your hand isn't so great, especially with limpers already in. Just pay your 1 SB and take a look at the flop. If you miss, get away cheap and await a better situation. | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, rambler, 7. Dec 2003 20:38 | ||
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| K,10s is a hand that I would limp or just fold. Here it doesn't make much sense to raise as you want to see the flop as cheaply as possible as the loose players will certainly call. Bluffing loose calling stations will cost a lot so I would see the flop cheaply and if I don't have the highest possible pair on the board after the flop I would get out as fast as possible. If you were to raise you could potentially be reraised in which case you would have to fold costing you two bets when might have been able to see the flop for one. | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, 4 POKER, 7. Dec 2003 21:46 | ||
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| Hi rambler, You stated that if you raised preflop with K-10 suited and then got reraised that you would have to fold, thus costing yourself extra bets. Here's what I think. While I may not be thrilled about getting 3 betted by someone, if I raise and then someone reraises me, I'm definitely going to call. If I held 10-7 suited or even 5-6 suited and put in a raise, I would still call one more small bet if someone raised me back preflop. Once you put in 2 small bets when you do raise preflop, *folding* for one more small bet when you have the chance to gain even *more* bets postflop can be a mistake - add the implied odds that you'll receive from postflop play when and if you do hit your hand or to extend that even further....You have strong reading abilities, you can outplay your opponent on the postflop betting rounds, should also be factored in. If your opponent has difficulty laying down his strong prelop hand and will pay you off no matter what hits the flop, also has to be added in to that factor. ******************************************************************************** Extreme Example - I raised one time with 7-2. Did I think it was a good hand preflop? Hell no! Of course I didn't. I was on the button, all folded to me and the blinds were tight players, (but they were also aware), and I didn't want to disappoint them in that spot by not rasing! I can get away from my hand (s) very easily (most of the time), so if I raise in that spot and then to my surprise get reraised by one of the blinds, I will not just fold there. Now I'm sure many, many people would disagree with my raising with such a trash hand and that I should just throw away that junk and not put ANY of my chips into the pot, and that this is not "solid poker". But I disagree with that. It may not be "tight" poker but that wouldn't make it an incorrect choice either. First, I wouldn't make that type of a play on a regular basis, but I would, if I felt the time was right to do it, hence, also countering in the players I was up against, ie; how well are my reading abilities, and how well my postflop play is vs. their postflop play and decision making. Believe me, I'm not advocating for players to raise with airballs, but if you feel really good about your game and you're (anyone) not steaming or just on tilt, well there could be spots and times, to make strange plays when the conditions are right for it . Please don't go off raising with 7-2 just for the hell of it!!! It was just one example of trying to take an advantage of something that could be profitable, and whether or not it's profitable for that one time does not mean it was wrong or should never be tried again! Know your boundries, be aware of your opponets weaknesses and know where your *own* strengths lie. 4P- | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, Smokey27, 8. Dec 2003 08:33 | ||
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| Absolutely right. IF he rasied and was rerasied he would be getting 12 to 18 to 1 to call the reraise depending on who else called. With those odds you would be wrong not to see the flow with a three high or your example, the seven duece. | ||
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| Re: raising to drive out blinds, Schuster, 8. Dec 2003 01:58 | ||
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| If the blinds are on the tighter side and the limpers are generally unimaginative ABC players who have a good chance of folding if they miss the flop, then I'd be much more inclined to raise. The odds of both of the limpers missing the flop is about 50%, and if a flop bet will win often enough, it's clearly a +EV play. You can think about almost as a semibluff type raise. Either you can hit the flop and still win, or you can see a flop where it looks like everyone missed, and win. On the other hand, if the blinds like to play, I would probably just call. Betting into 2 opponents is fine. Betting into a field has little chance of taking the pot down on the flop. A raise in a situation like this would be more equivalent to a value raise. You have the best position and you think you have the best hand, so you want more money in the pot. That might not be true with a KTs, but maybe given the limpers tendencies (ie loose) you may want to raise it up. One deciding factor is if people tend to check to the raiser. Getting a free card on the flop is often very advantageous to a hand like KTs. It may allow you to pick up a draw, or spike one of your cards for a pair. All of the above is presented in rather concrete terms, and of course, poker is never concrete. The best you can do is make an educated guess, which is sometimes way off. But, if you weigh your options everytime you have a hand in front of you and decide the best course of action based on the situation, you'll come out ahead. Good luck Blade. Lee | ||
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