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Server Time: 1/8/2009 8:30:47 AM PACIFIC |
 NLHE at Binions, FeliciaLee, 7. Dec 2003 18:09 | ||
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| Monday, November 24, 2003 Okay, so almost everything I "heard" about the NLHE game at the Shoe was wrong. Isn't that always the way things are? First off, the buy-in really was $100, but that was the minimum, not a min/max, like I'd been led to believe. The chip lead had about $600 on the table, so I made sure to have $600, as well. The average stack was about $150. I sat down at an eight handed game. The max rake was 10% maxium of $4.00, no bb jackpot drop. The blinds were $1.00 & $2.00. No posting, no missed blinds. If you were seated, you were dealt in. The players seemed to smell "fish" when I sat down, which is probably how they judge any new player, on a weekday, until they are proven otherwise. Some of them watched my hands and the way I handled the chips and my cards. I cannot lie and say this game was exciting. The fact of the matter was that it was boring and very predictable. The players were extremely tight, most of the time limping in for $2.00, or folding to a pre-flop bet. Bets varied. Some players raised to $10, others to $12. Those were the most common raises. Sometimes a player would raise quite a bit more, if there were several limpers, or the pot had already been raised. It was usually very easy to spot a failed steal attempt. A player raised to $7, $10 or $12. Another player called. The flop came down and the original raiser usually checked it down, if in first position, or folded to any bet, if in last position. I spotted a few steal, re-steal attempts. They were always amusing, and several times were shown down on the river, unless one of the bluffers decided to try to buy the pot with a large bet if a scare card hit. I was disappointed in some of the players. They all seemed to know how to play poker, but some still hadn't progressed beyond little novice mistakes like re-checking their hole cards if there was a flush draw. I tried to see if this was an acting technique, but I never got any indication that someone was trying to "fool" me into thinking he didn't know what he had. The game rapidly disintegrated when players realized that I was no fish, yet no new players came into the game. They all seemed to know each other, but none of them really played much better than the others. There was a young guy in the one seat who seemed to have a pretty good feel for NLHE. He obviously didn't know that the one seat wasn't the best seat, nor did he memorize his hole cards, but he had a good feel for the game, and usually played well, knowing when to steal, when to raise and fold. In one key hand, however, he was snared. As all hyper aggressive players know, a good hand can get snapped off by other players refusing to believe that every time they raise, they have something. He bluffed so much that another player hurt him. The player was the six seat, an older man who had no nose (cancer?). The kid in the one seat let him see a free flop in the big blind. When the flop came down rags, the six seat bet $20, I believe. The kid raised him $40 more. The man called. The turn brought a scare card, the six seat checked and the kid bet $60. The six went all-in for about $125, and the kid called. The six seat had flopped top pair (sevens), then rivered two pair, with 75o. The man's hands were shaking so badly that I'm surprised the kid even continued to bet. It was pretty obvious to me that the man was sick of the kid raising almost every hand, in an attempt to either steal the pot altogether, or bluff at it later. Although the kid didn't show his hand, he did say something about being rivered, so I would assume maybe he had a seven also, with a better kicker. That is what I put him on, anyway. Who knows. He seemed genuinely disappointed, like he lost with the best hand on the turn, he didn't seem to be "acting," like he'd been bluffing all along. The kid was able to steal some pots from me. I knew it, he knew it. I was trying to get a feel for him in the first hour, find some tells. He was smart enough to look at me when the flop came down, not at the flop. Like I said, he had some sense. Most of this game was played before the flop, as are most NLHE games I've run across. We saw quite a few flops unraised, for $2 each, but most were raised. The players seemed to be very interested in just stealing the blinds. They would raise $7, $10, $12 into a $3.00 pot. Sometimes more. They liked to win a lot of tiny pots, that seemed to make them happy. I lost a flush draw with A4s, and spent about $25 chasing it. I got pocket queens and raised too much, only stealing the blinds. At the time, the pre-flop raises were getting more and more outrageous, with someone usually calling. So I made it $25, but I guess they knew that "I" am not "them," so they dropped like flies. Once I had pocket aces in the big blind. The pot was raised to $12 by the kid. The second seat, sensing a bluff, called. I raised to $37. They both hemmed and hawed like Hollywood, but eventually folded. I wouldn't have minded one caller, but I kind of wanted the hand head's up. In late position, shorthanded, I raised $25 with pocket nines and was re-raised $100. The small blind showed me kings. We went from eight handed to three handed. There was no rake when we got below seven. We got back to five, one of them being a real fish, who busted out in no time at all. They smelled blood and went after him. I only got one small pot off of him, but he only played maybe ten hands before he was busted. One thing that they seemed to do 100% of the time, when we were shorthanded, was straddle, to either buy the button, or a later position. At first I thought this was lame, but then began to realize that since they truly never wanted to see a flop, it was worth the $4.00 to buy a later position. The game was stale and boring. The players were so predictable. When we got back to four again, I decided to call it a night. I was down $37, having been slightly up and down, but mostly even, for the two hours that I played. I don't think I'll join the game again, at least, not during the week. One of the players told me that the game is very good on the weekends. Lots of tourists, lots of new WPT viewers. Maybe I'll go back on Friday and see how it is. He says I'll do well, he seemed to want to "make friends" with me. Although I felt that I held my own, I certainly didn't think I was the best player in the game. These guys play against each other every day, and only had to read ME, as they were all gunning for me, while mostly staying out of each other's way. I felt exposed and sometimes manipulated. I certainly would like a few weak players and/or tourists, not just the local grinders. So ends me disappointing NLHE trip report to the Horseshoe. Wish I could have had some more exciting news, but the plain truth was, I was bored to tears and would have rather been playing 15/30 at Bellagio, or in some juicy tourney. Play well! Felicia :) | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Mark, 7. Dec 2003 18:21 | ||
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| Hi Felicia I played the same game about a week later than you. When I was there, there were 2 very aggressive players who made the game interesting (for a while). There were lots of pre-flop riases ($10 and $12) and a fair amount of betting (also alot of big river bets by a drunk player) Unfortunately, the players knew AND disliked each other. They were arguing soo much, that the tables on the other side of the room were complaining about the noise. The game turned into a fight between a few players. I didn't catch any cards for while and left with a headache after 2 hours (up about $20) The game was pretty tight-aggressive. The loose players busted out early and the players left (and new) were the ones who were fighting. It was not a good atmosphere for poker. As for the play, it was pretty basic (as you mentioned). Everybody also assumed i was a fish (maybe i am) but i held my own and got some respect with a weird play. Mark | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Alan Merriam, 28. Dec 2003 17:54 | ||
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| Hi Felicia, "One thing that they seemed to do 100% of the time, when we were shorthanded, was straddle, to either buy the button, or a later position. " What does straddle mean? | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, FeliciaLee, 28. Dec 2003 18:49 | ||
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| In games played with a blind/blinds, the player to the immediate left of the big blind can post a "live straddle" before the cards are dealt. The straddle is double the big blind, constituting a live raise, which is made blind. It is usually done to create more action at the table, or by someone who is loose/aggressive. Normally, a straddle is a stupid play. At the Shoe, they were doing the straddle in order to buy a better position, instead of being UTG. Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Alan Merriam, 28. Dec 2003 21:01 | ||
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| FeliciaLee wrote: In games played with a blind/blinds, the player to the immediate left of the big blind can > post a "live straddle" before the cards are dealt. The straddle is double the big blind, constituting a live raise, which is made blind. It is usually done to create more action at the table, or by someone who is loose/aggressive. At the Shoe, they were doing the straddle in order to buy a better position, instead of being UTG. At the B&M I play at that call that a Live six, I play (3-6). The button doesn't move so the player is still under the gun. I don't understand why their position would be better unless the button moves. Any clarifying remarks would be helpful. | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Flakes, 28. Dec 2003 21:25 | ||
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| Yeah, I don't quite understand that myself. "If you were to live straddle UTG, that would give you better position"(?). Wouldn't that be the same as raising UTG? Felicia? Maybe we're just interpretating you incorrectly. Flakes | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, SmallFeesh, 28. Dec 2003 22:19 | ||
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| it acts as a third blind... so the straddler has the last option to raise or check PRE-FLOP... its a stupid move... made by stupid players... they still have bad position after the flop.. unless everyone folds out leaving the blinds... unlikely... good poker is played post flop.. not pre. in my opinion anyways... ive heard of the NL game down there.. and i watched the game once.. it seemed like a stupid NL game.. but hey.. mabey ill go check it out one of these days... i might know some of the players... | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Angel, 29. Dec 2003 00:12 | ||
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| There is also the Mississippi straddle which can be posted by anyone and the action starts to the left of the straddle - so for instance, if the button puts up a MS than the small blind is first to act. This type of straddle can improve you position because it re-arranges position. The Mississipii straddle is used at the Horseshoe - at least at in the bigger games. | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, PairTheBoard, 29. Dec 2003 01:46 | ||
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| I'm afraid that's a poor example Angel. The button already has the button and already has position. Are you saying that someone in middle or early postion who puts in a Mississippi Blind, then acts last pre-=flop and on all subsequent rounds? In other words, does putting in a Mississippi Blind basically buy you the button? If not please expain completely as myself and I think most people around here have never heard of such a thing. Thanking you in advance. | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, SmallFeesh, 29. Dec 2003 02:44 | ||
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| mississippi straddle huh?.... i have not seen that one yet... from what im gathering its a blind put in anywhere on the board making that person have the button?? im assuming that its only a pre-flop position change?? if so its still stupid! you get your money in there to play a hand "in position" yet you have no clue what the cards will be! and by the playing zone of cards most of the time it will be some crap like 7-2o... and now your involved in a hand you have no buissness playng in the first place.. just to flop a pair and get more involved.. just to lose more money!!! and they do this regurally in that no-limit game at binions?? WOW! stupid stupid stupid!!!! im gonna have to go pay that game a visit a bit earlier than planned! im licking my chops as we speak! lol | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, PairTheBoard, 29. Dec 2003 03:44 | ||
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| so is that the idea? All the action goes around the table before the Mississippi blind takes its option to reraise preflop. After the flop, position returns to normal via the button? So the extra money may cause people behind you to fold allowing you to inherit last postion postflop - if you're lucky. And you have last option preflop? I agree with SmallFeesh. How in the world can you complain about playing in a game where everybody is doing that? You mean you're unhappy because there's not MORE dead money going into the pot? I wish I could find a game like that online. | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Angel, 29. Dec 2003 04:14 | ||
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| Yes, I failed to mention that though I was asked - the change in position is for the first round only - although that's not usually a factor since in practice it's usually the button who puts up the straddle. | ||
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| Re: NLHE at Binions, Angel, 29. Dec 2003 03:40 | ||
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| Sorry that example didn't work for you. :) I'm going to stick with it though because in most games I've been in when the MS has been employed, it's usually the button exercising the option. The reason is simply that it makes the only people who have money in the pot - the blinds, act first. The blinds are in a terrible position anyway but there are certain benefits to being in the blinds. If you are in the BB and no one raises - you don't have to risk any money to see the flop (that BB was already gone) when the action gets to you. If you are the SB it only costs you a 1/2 bet. Also, in the blinds you get to see what everyone else thinks of there hands before you have to act (pre-flop). Now look at what happens if the button puts the straddle on. Let's say the blinds are $25 and $50 and the button throws a $100 on the button making it $100 to go (and maintaining last action) and action now starts to his left with the SB. The advantage the blinds had before of seeing what everyone else did before they acted is no longer there. The BB will not get a free ride here (which would be the case with any straddle) but he also has a full table of folks left to act behind him to fear a raise from while he'll be out of position the entire hand. When the action gets to the BB with an UTG straddler, if the straddler was not raised the BB need only fear a raise from one spot. However, if the straddler was the button (in a ten-handed game) he would need concern himself with potential raises from 9 players. Clearly therefore, there are less hands that it would be correct to call another $50 with if the straddler was UTG. This same type of thinking holds for the small blind too. Now for the rest of the players, they have no money invested yet AND they will be out of position playing against the straddler on the button who, since he already has money invested in the pot will often be getting the odds to call even if a player to his right comes in raising and will then be in position. The most common argument against the mississippi straddle is that it gives the button which is already the most powerful position on the table even more powerful. I don't like it because it changes the dynamic of the game in a way that works against my natural tendancies and I have not yet learned a strategy to compensate. I am confident that one can adjust appropriately. If I find myself in a game with this feature routinely, I'll spend more time working on it. | ||
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