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Server Time: 2/13/2012 6:53:33 PM PACIFIC |
 Another Hand from Ciaffones book, iceman5, 5. Dec 2003 16:01 | ||
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| Heres another hand from "Middle Limit Holdem" that I disagree with and want opinions on. You are in EP with JJ and raise one limper. A MP and the BB call as does the early limper. 4 players. The flop is 8d7d3d. You dont have a diamond. BB checks, EP bets and he says you should call because if another diamonds falls your hand is dead unless its the Jd. Isnt that the exact reason you should raise? Barring the diamonds, you probably have the best hand. If you raise you may get the any diamond below the K to fold. I have disagreed with a lot of the the hands he lists and since he is obviously a winning player I have been second guessing myself alot. Several people have said that they think hes a bit passive and I would have to agree (but then Im not making a living playing poker). Comments on this hand? | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, Schuster, 5. Dec 2003 16:23 | ||
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| The Ad will still call the 2 bets cold if you raise, so you won't be able to thin the field much. I believe he is saying wait to see what comes on the turn, and if it's a blank, then raise there. If it's a diamond, you can get away from your hand. Basically, the times your hand stays good, you'll have won more, whereas the times you get flushed out, you'll have lost less. Lee | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, lunchmeat, 5. Dec 2003 23:16 | ||
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| I always raise the flop in situations like this. Raising the flop gets rid of straight draws, pairs, and low flush draws. Good players probably will put you on a small flush (if you called pre-flop), and you'll virtually never get reraised with anything other than a made flush. Since a lot of players will slow play flopped flushes, you'll often face reraises on the turn no matter what you do, but by waiting for the turn to raise it costs you an extra small bet when someone does have the flush. | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, Phish, 7. Dec 2003 13:10 | ||
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| Raising is automatic for me here. If you're calling anyway, raising will only cost half a bet more and may protect your hand against overcards, straight draws, small flush draws, and middle or bottom pair. Don't be so eager to 'save' that half a bet. At this point, protecting your hand and increasing your chances of winning the pot should be paramount. I think that if there is one 'secret' to successful flop play, it is to how best to thin the field with a checkraise, a raise, or a bet into a probable raiser. | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, Stevolley2, 7. Dec 2003 19:39 | ||
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| By raising you give the other players a chance to re-raise with a made flush. This info will save you in the long run, I say raise everytime. | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, mkpoker, 7. Dec 2003 19:55 | ||
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| I agree with Brier and Ciaffone on this hand. As Schuster noted, anyone holding a high diamonds will stay in. Low flushes may either call or re-raise, and a single bet with this board is likely enough to drive out anyone with off-suit overcards. Raising here only exposes you to more risk, with little benefit. That said, B&C acknowledge that their hypothetical hands can be played in other ways. I think it's most important is to recognize their reasoning and factor it into your play. For me, for example, B&C have made me much more sensitive to threatening flops and detecting "tainted" outs. Even if I disagree with their conclusion (which is very, very rare) understanding WHY they think as they do has been a huge benefit to my game. | ||
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| Re: Another Hand from Ciaffones book, noiseboy, 8. Dec 2003 09:41 | ||
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| this is one that's pretty close. The advantage of raising is that the only hands that will reraise you are made flushes, so you can fold with a clear conscience. On the other hand, if you raise and the next card is a diamond, you aren't going to be very happy. C&B have a guideline that you shouldn't throw bets at a pot when the next card will often make you want to throw up, or something like that. I don't think they are arguing that you should be passive, but that you should wait until you see that the turn is a blank, then you can bet when the likely draw is actually a dog to you. I think I'd lean toward raising it on the flop, with the premise that the information I gain will save me money on the larger betting rounds. Raising will likely fold off some raggy diamonds which might beat me if I don't raise. | ||
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