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Server Time: 8/30/2008 7:09:14 AM PACIFIC |
 Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Formless, 5. Dec 2003 05:40 | ||
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| Good Morning, First hand of a $200 PartyPoker Sit & Go. You have ATo in the BB and get a free ride with 4 other players. The flop comes AT7 all clubs. What's your move? Why? I'll post my thought process and results in another post. Formless | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Formless, 5. Dec 2003 06:01 | ||
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| The SB checked, I checked to the 3 remaining players. I check so I have the option of folding, calling, raising, or getting a free look at the turn. Sort of like the triple threat position in basketball. I am out of position, and can gain information by checking. Mathematically, a fourth club will come something like 35% of the time. Versus a hand like KcJh I am a 57% favourite, good but not great if I am cashing in a high % of these tournaments. And of course I may be up against a flush already. The second player to act behind me bet 150 into a 75 pot. He limped preflop from middle position. The overbet screams that he has an A and wants to take down the pot now. I flat call, something I rarely do unless on an obvious draw. I figure I am ahead and would like to see a non-club turn card before getting busy. The turn is a brick. I want to represent a draw and check. My opponent quickly checks, which is fine with me because he probably 'bought' that I am on a draw. I think he has something like A9, AJ. The river brings another low brick. I think for a moment, then check. He bets 300 into a 375 pot, I quickly checkraise, he dumps his hand. Comments? on 5. Dec 2003 05:40 Formless wrote: > Good Morning, > > First hand of a $200 PartyPoker Sit & Go. You have ATo in the BB and get > a free ride with 4 other players. The flop comes AT7 all clubs. What's your > move? Why? I'll post my thought process and results in another post. > > Formless | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Grateful Rooster, 5. Dec 2003 08:00 | ||
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| I think I have a pretty good understanding for the game, but lack the experience that it appears you have to read the flop bet. So I have a few questions really. It looks to me like you finessed about as much out of this hand that you could get against good players. I probably would have played more directly (aggressive early), taken a smaller pot, but not risked a snake bite. I understand your thinking in checking -- let the other guys tell you what they have -- but what if everyone checks through? Don't you risk allowing draws to see a free card? You read the double-pot flop bet as a high pair. Would that not have also been a reasonable bet from a low flush who wants to take the pot before someone has a chance to draw a better flush? Would a pot-size bet be more reasonable from such a hand? Would the other guy really read your flat call as a draw? You wouldn't have good pot odds to make that call, would you? The turn and river play makes sense to trap as much as you can, as it looks like you are clearly ahead. How much did you raise on the end? Could you have delayed a bit, though, to encourage a reraise or call your all-in or was this unlikely? Great scenario. --GR | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Formless, 5. Dec 2003 09:34 | ||
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| on 5. Dec 2003 08:00 Grateful Rooster wrote: > I think I have a pretty good understanding for the game, but lack the experience that it > appears you have to read the flop bet. So I have a few questions really. It looks to me > like you finessed about as much out of this hand that you could get against good players. > I probably would have played more directly (aggressive early), taken a smaller pot, but > not risked a snake bite. I might play this hand differently tomorrow. I thought I played it fine but it's an interesting hand worth discussing I think. > I understand your thinking in checking -- let the other guys tell you what they have -- > but what if everyone checks through? Don't you risk allowing draws to see a free card? Yes, a free card is kind of win-win if the turn is a brick or a club. There is only 75 in the pot, nto very much really, and it costs nothing to fold. Tournaments are not won on the first hand, but they can be lost. There is a big field of players who could have anything. If I bet the pot and have two callers, they are getting good implied odds to draw. If I overbet the pot, I can get called by all kinds of hands that have better than 30% chance of sending me home. That's too risky too early for me, but it varies from player to player. If I bet out and someone moves all-in, I have a tough decision to make for all of my chips. So I want to see a brick on the turn and not too much heat before committing my stack. > You read the double-pot flop bet as a high pair. Would that not have also been a > reasonable bet from a low flush who wants to take the pot before someone has a chance to > draw a better flush? Would a pot-size bet be more reasonable from such a hand? No and Yes. A low flush is less likely than an A to occur I think, and even if you normailze frequency I think a flush will bet differently than this. A pot sized bet from a baby flush would be more reasonable. > Would the other guy really read your flat call as a draw? You wouldn't have good pot > odds to make that call, would you? I think after I check the flop and turn it's pretty hard for him to put me on top two. I have great implied odds to draw with the Kc under some circumstances, but personally I'd fold. > The turn and river play makes sense to trap as much as you can, as it looks like you are > clearly ahead. How much did you raise on the end? Could you have delayed a bit, though, > to encourage a reraise or call your all-in or was this unlikely? My general plan was to checkraise the turn hard. It worked out that by the river he could not put me on a very good hand so I had great leverage, or fake-out equity, when I checked for the third time. I checkraised the minimum on the end, I thought he had an A or maybe would bet with nothing as a bluff, so I felt he would try to sell this hand for about 250-300. I did it quickly because when I get bushwhacked on the river I tend to get angry, tilt, then autocall, all in the blink of an eye, and I think others do too. Maybe an all-in bluff bluff checkraise would have worked, I don't think betting out was the best play. | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Schuster, 5. Dec 2003 12:20 | ||
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| I think this opponent is much more likely to have Kc with a ten, jack, or queen, than an ace. He bets the river then folds when you checkraise. Hmmm... why would he bet the river with an ace? Selling a one pair hand with that board is just dumb. If he were a bad player, he'd very likely throw in the last chips to call your checkraise. He took a free card on the turn when he missed (depending on his actual holding) two pair, trips, his gutshot, or the flush, and then tried to buy the pot on the river. He's not going to pay it off with nothing on that board, so you got the pot. If he actually had an ace, he may figure you for the draw, and in which case, there's no reason to bet the river, since your busted draw won't call. Lee | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., PairTheBoard, 5. Dec 2003 22:58 | ||
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| It doesn't make sense to me when you say he has an Ace, puts you on a draw, so HE CHECKS THE TURN? Giving your draw a free card? He may have an Ace or Ten with a good club kicker but his check on the turn indicates he's afraid you have him beat so takes a free card just in case he needs help. If he had an Ace with no good club kicker he would almost certainly bet the turn and probably check or value bet the river when the blank comes. I hate hitting a good hand on those 3 flush boards. I'm stil not sure I'm playing them right. I usually try to downgrade my hand a couple of notches and try to play it like that's what I had. Ie. Treat Two Pair like Top Pair and Top pair like Second Pair. more or less. advice welcome. | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., shorn, 5. Dec 2003 06:47 | ||
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| Limit or NL? | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Formless, 5. Dec 2003 09:09 | ||
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| NL, starting with 1000 chips and blinds of 10/15. | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., SpaceAce, 5. Dec 2003 07:28 | ||
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| I would have bet. Here's my reasoning: 1) If no one else has the flush, you may take down the pot right there. 2) If someone is sitting on a big club you don't want to give them any free cards, 35% chance or not. 3) Top two pair is nice but it's not good enough to slow-play, especially with three of a suit on the board, and I think you are not maximizing your profits by check/calling. Maybe your opponent wants a free card but is willing to pay for it if he has to. So, make him pay and get money in the pot. Of course, I don't play anything above the $50 PartyPoker tournaments so I am not sure how it plays at the $200 level. I still think I would have bet. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., mkpoker, 5. Dec 2003 10:21 | ||
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| While your read makes perfect sense (particularly with regard to his large bet on the flop), I'd suggest your play here exposed you to needless risk. I would have dumped this hand on the flop so early in the tourney. This is the FIRST HAND of the tournament. Why risk 1/2 your stack (or more) when you could be drawing virtually dead? It may sound weak-tight, but I'd generally avoid committing so many chips without the nuts or near nuts. This is an extraordinarily dangerous flop for you (as you noted). The bettor could easily hold something like KJc, QJc, or J9c--leaving you drawing to a four-outer. Your deductive process leading to the conclusion that he held a draw instead of a flush makes sense, but how sure can you really be? 80 percent? 90 percent? So early in the tourney, I'd wait until I was darn near 100% before commiting so much of my stack. Just my .02...And a final question. What would you have done if he pushed all-in following your river raise? | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., jaustin, 5. Dec 2003 11:19 | ||
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| I like your play - you made a read and stuck to it - until the river check raise. If your read is right, he's almost certain to fold - but if you're wrong, you've cost yourself alot of chips. The only worse hand I could see him calling you with is a smaller two-pair, as he'll probably give you credit for the flush. | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., theo, 5. Dec 2003 20:57 | ||
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| w/o being too specfic or general...i would pay to see the turn card, (someone might need another club) but only a small amt otherwise id muck em. if i can check i check. on the river if i see a club im gone anything else i would pay but nothing crazy (esp. if he didnt raise it up) | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., LJH, 9. Dec 2003 10:34 | ||
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| formless, fold.ljh | ||
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| Re: Flopping top two, 3 flush board., Bungus, 10. Dec 2003 22:29 | ||
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| Why? | ||
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