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Server Time: 12/1/2008 4:33:07 PM PACIFIC |
 LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), gregj2, 4. Dec 2003 17:45 | ||
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| Hi all. I'm very much a newbie, going through the process that many others have described here (reading as much as I could/can, then playing at free money tables, now trying micro-limit real money games: I've started with 0.2/0.4 at Poker Stars). I would very much appreciate whatever advice people have on two hands which I've been losing money with: KQo and 99 (clearly, these are two very separate problems). Playing KQo in EP seems dubious, unless the game is very passive (certainly possible). But the conventional wisdom (Lee Jones, say) of raising with these cards in MP and LP escapes me, since it is difficult (for me) to play these cards post-flop, unless an ace flops, in which case you clearly have to fold at the first sneeze (even though that sneeze probably represents 72o, but hey, this is LL). In general, it seems very easy to make a dreaded second best hand with these cards. Does that mean that a newbie like me should just muck them upon receipt (drastic, but not necessarily wrong)? Perhaps the discussion of 99 should be extended to other medium PP (although it seems generally right to me to fold 88 and 77 immediately if you don't hit your set on the flop in most LL games, perhaps with some exceptions). Indeed, the argument may work better in the reverse in that perhaps even TT (and, dare I say it, JJ if an over card hits on the flop -- or even if not ?!?!?) should be folded quickly if you don't hit your set. But then is it right to raise before the flop with any of these PP (surely not?). Obviously, any reasonable answer requires a discussion of position and game texture, and it is exactly this kind of analysis I would love to hear, assuming the general conditions of a LL game (it would certainly be interesting to also hear how this advice would change for more sophisticated games). Many thanks for your time. Best, -greg | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), iceman5, 4. Dec 2003 18:26 | ||
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| Position is very important with medium PP's. You want to be heads up, or have alot of callers (you dont want to be in between and have 3). You will win more often if you are heads up. You wont win as often with alot of callers but when you do hit your set you will win big and cover the times you didnt. Thats why position is so important. If you are in LP you already know if you have enough callers to play. If you are in EP or MP you must raise (especially if first in the pot) to limit the competition. Examples: You are in MP with 77, there is 1 limper. You have to fold. You cant be sure you will get enough players, plus someone might raise behind you and isolate you and the other limper. Now you are taking the flop 3 way which will lose money with a medium pair like 77. On the other hand if there were already 3 limpers before you it would probably be ok to limp also. Example 2: You are in MP with 99. It is folded to you. You have to fold or better yet raise and hopefully will only get 1 caller. I dont have that much trouble with KQ. The people in my games usually raise with AK and AQ so alot of the time I know where Im at. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), shorn, 5. Dec 2003 05:22 | ||
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| I think a lot depends on what kind of game you are in too. If it is a loose passive game where there is generally not any pre-flop raising (read: DREAM GAME!), then these pairs are playable from UTG because your implied odds are so high when you do flop your set. Otherwise Greg in an answer to your question, these hands (especially KQo) should be folded a lot. And, if you do play the middle PP's and don't flop a set (or an overpair or a outside str8 draw), then don't call any bets. In these LL games where a lot of players will play any ace to the river with noting, you won't lose much in LT expectation by folding often. However, when you do get a flop you like (set, two pair with KQ, str8 draw), pound the living crap out of it and make everyone pay the max to draw against you. You CANNOT win at any hold'em table if you are not willing to be aggressive when you should be. Good luck and keep learning. Steve | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), Palinya, 4. Dec 2003 18:49 | ||
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| I'm not an expert but I'll give advice anyway :) KQo - yes it should definitely be mucked in early position and at least the early spots in middle position. When Lee Jones says that this can be played in middle and late position there are some qualifiers with that... 1. The game must be loose. If the game is tight and people won't call a bet with less that KQo then this just costs you money. If someone is going to be in with crap then yeah play it 2. The Early Positions must have folded. KQo is okay against a couple of loose opponents. If there was an early position raise or even limpers, then KQo needs to be thrown away So basically you only want to play KQo when you know almost everyone has folded and nobody has shown any strength. You do not want to bring this hand into a large field of checkers or raisers. In early position, you just don't know what everyone is going to do so it isn't worth playing. This is also why, if you are playing KQo you want to raise it. The more people you fold with this raise the better. If you limp in with it you are actually encouraging other hands to limp in too (especially in early position) 99 is sort of in the same boat - sometimes. You want to play it strong in late position against few opponents in the same way you play KQo. You don't want people to stick around with draws if there are just a couple people. If they have AJ or AT or KQ in late position, you want to fold them out so they can't draw out against you. However.... 99 is still a pair too and you can make a nice set with it. This is the other way to play 99. Limp in with it against a large number of limpers. This way you are getting people in the pot if you hit it. But if you miss the set on the flop... you do not want to pay any more for it if an overcard comes up. If there are not overcards... and nobody has shown aggression pre-flop (or now) then everyone is probably on a drawing hand and you probably have the best hand so you have to bet and try to fold people out. If an overcard comes on the turn or river you will probably have to fold to a bettor but you are really hoping to still make your set or chase people out. The thing with 99 is you have to decide which one of these circumstances you are in and play it accordingly. How many people are in? Should you bet it and try to knock a small number out or see the flop cheaply and try to get lots of people to pay you when you make a set? By the way, I'm just a beginner too so if anyone sees anything wrong with this logic, please let me know too! | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), iceman5, 4. Dec 2003 21:46 | ||
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| Palinya, you said that you throw KQ away in MP if there are limpers. I wont call a raise with KQ, but I do play it after limpers. AK and AQ are you main worries and most people in EP would raise if they had either of those. A limper would be more likely to have KJ, AJ or maybe JTs. All of those would be ok to play against. Throwing it away is probably not a bad play though | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), Palinya, 4. Dec 2003 22:18 | ||
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| ok, cool :) That makes sense... I'm glad there are lots of people here to correct my advice :) | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), gregj2, 5. Dec 2003 00:18 | ||
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| This makes a lot of sense, but sadly in the LL games I've been playing (I shouls really say micro-limit) limpers seem just as likely to hold Big Slick as anything else. I think this is what has been causing many of my problems. Thanks for the very sensible advice. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), shorn, 5. Dec 2003 05:24 | ||
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| Pal- Sound advice. Steve | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), gregj2, 4. Dec 2003 21:21 | ||
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| Many thanks for your replies. They are both cogent and helpful. I believe I've heard something like what was described for medium pairs before, but obviously had never internalized it, which is to say: never understood it. In both cases, I think, I was falling into the trap of "what to do with Group 4 hands", rather than thinking logically about what effect I wanted to induce with the specific cards in front of me. All the books warn about this, but it is easy (for me) to lose sight of. Palinya -- your post, to me, highlights my difficulty with KQo. As you say: > 1. The game must be loose. If the game is tight and people won't call a > bet with less that KQo then this just costs you money. If someone is going > to be in with crap then yeah play it > 2. The Early Positions must have folded. KQo is okay against a couple of > loose opponents. If there was an early position raise or even limpers, > then KQo needs to be thrown away I think I agree with your analysis, but it is interesting (to me) to note that contradictory forces are at work: you want the game to be loose so that people who call in LP and from the blinds are donating to our favorite charity, but the game can't be too loose because you need people to fold in EP. In medium limit HE, it is perhaps easy, or at least easier, to see the middle ground between these opposed forces, but in LL the borderline might be quite narrow, and I think this explains some of my difficulty. Still, I think you make an excellent point (if I have understood it correctly), and one that I have not taken from any of my readings of Jones: with (what I'll call) unsuited intermediate high cards -- KQo certainly (perhaps to a lesser extent AJo, ATo?) -- you don't want to play against many other hands, so in MP and LP, you need to either fold or raise, calling can seldom be right, and raising is unlikely to be right with many limpers in the pot before you: you need to be first one in and you need to raise to discourage drawing hands. Cool. Thanks again. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), Palinya, 4. Dec 2003 22:46 | ||
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| As iceman points out limpers aren't a huge threat to KQ since if the had AK or AQ they probably would have raised. KQ can handle KJ, QJ, KT, etc. Same thing with AJ and AQ... if you hit the J or Q you have best kicker. If you hit the A, the J or Q will probably hold up against a limper but not against a raiser who is more likely to have AA, AK or a set of Jack or Queens. So I think you can raise KQ, AQ, AJ and maybe even AT against limpers. (AT is iffy since AJ might be limped in... you need to know your opponents somewhat) You still want to try and fold them out... true you won't fold many of them out pre-flop if they already have a bet in but you can get rid of the blinds and some limped hands like 79s. Of course you want less limpers with AT than you would with AQ but I think both can be worth a raise. If you are going to play these hands raise with them... It is either raise or fold I completely understand what you mean when you said Lee Jones wasn't really clear... I just went through that a couple weeks ago myself. He says you can play KQ in middle position but I didn't REALLY understand what that meant. He says you can do this and that but doesn't really tell you why it is correct or incorrect. Once this clicked for me, the listings of the starting hands and what groups they were in pretty much became pointless. I don't think about what group they are in anymore and where I can play them. I just think about the strengths of the hand, what hands can dominate it, how many limpers, how many raisers and how many more to come and what do your opponents that haven't acted usually do. Limping in with a low pocket pair even in early position can be the right thing to do if hardly anyone raises pre-flop and almost everyone stays in to see the flop. You are getting your odds without seeing how the act because you already have a pretty good idea what they will do. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), ADAM THE EXPERT, 4. Dec 2003 22:22 | ||
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| WELL, GREG, I'M SORRY TO BUST YOUR BUBBLE, BUT THE WORDS "LOW LIMIT" AND "SOPHTISTICATED ANALYSIS" JUST DON'T GO TOGETHER!!! FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU TRULY BECOME A HOLD EM EXPERT, YOU WILL LEARN THAT THE ADAM THE EXPERT PAIR CLASSIFICATIONS, ARE CORRECT. POCKET NINES, ARE NOT A "MEDIUM" PAIR. THEY ARE A SMALL PAIR. HERE ARE THE ADAM THE EXPERT CLASSIFICATIONS, FOR PAIR RANKS MICRO: 22 33 44 55 (ALMOST ALWAYS UNPLAYABLE SMALL: 66 77 88 99 (VERY LIMITED EXPECTATION OF WINNING, WITHOUT SET) MEDIUM 10 10 JJ SOME EXPECTATION OF WINNING, WITHOUT SET LARGE QQ KK GOOD EXPECTATION OF WINNING, WITHOUT SET PREMIUM AA VERY GOOD EXPECTATION OF WINNING WITHOUT IMPROVEMENT (IF PLAYED CORRECTLY) AND, THIS IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, ONLY. I'M TRYING TO MAKE IT EASY. ACTUALLY, THEIR ARE NO "DESCRIPTIVE GROUPS" FOR PAIRS. EACH ONE IS DIFFERENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GO UP THE LADDER. QQ, IS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN JJ. KK MUCH, MUCH BETTER THAN QQ, ET CETERA. THIS IS EXPECIALLY TRUE, IN NO LIMIT TOURNAMENTS. NOW, AS FAR AS POSITION AND GAME TEXTURE, FOR DECIDING WHETHER TO PLAY 99, YOU CAN JUST STRIKE POSITION, OFF YOUR LIST. THE TEXTURE OF THE GAME, IS WHAT DICTATES THE PLAYING OF POCKET NINES. IF THERE HAS BEEN MAXIMUM CALLERS, AND MINIMAL RAISING, YOU PLAY POCKET NINES, REGARDLESS OF POSITION. IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN A GAME, SO TOUGH/TIGHT, THAT THE PROFITABLE PLAYING OF POCKETS NINES FROM EARLY POSITION IS QUESTIONABLE, THEN YOU ARE IN THE WRONG GAME-GET OUT!!! GONE ARE THE DAYS, WHEN YOU DROVE HOURS, TO GET TO A GAME, AND WERE PRETTY MUCH STUCK WITH THAT GAME. THERE ARE SO MANY GAMES AVAILABLE, WHY WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO PLAY IN A GAME, WHERE THE CONDITIONS MANDATE THROWING AWAY NINES, IN EARLY POSITION? GAME SELECTION: USE IT, KNOW IT, LIVE IT. YOU CAN BE VERY MEDIOCRE, IN ALL OTHER SKILLS, IF YOU ARE GOOD ABOUT GAME SELECTION. NOTICE HOW THE ABOVE ADVICE, DOES NOT EXTEND TO A PAIR AS SMALL AS 66. THERE, YOU MUST BE CAREFUL AS TO POSITION, AS THIS HAND IS CONSIDERABLY WEAKER THAN 99. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), Palinya, 4. Dec 2003 23:14 | ||
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| I've had a lot of success with pocket pairs as low as 22 in early position if I know the game is loose/passive enough. Lets face it... most of the time in a really loose passive game full of calling stations and 5+ people seeing every flop 22 has just about as much chance of winning the pot as 66 or 77 does. They both need to make a set since you will almost never win it with 66 high pair In my last 30,000 hands I got the following... 22 - 145 times for 0.24 big bets per hand 33 - 146 times for 0.07 big bets per hand 44 - 138 times for 0.12 big bets per hand 55 - 134 times for 0.19 big bets per hand 66 - 140 times for 0.48 big bets per hand 77 - 123 times for 0.24 big bets per hand 88 - 135 times for 1.11big bets per hand 99 - 124 times for 0.43 big bets per hand TT - 151 times for 0.45 big bets per hand JJ - 151 times for 1.56 big bets per hand QQ - 133 times for 0.67 big bets per hand KK - 134 times for 1.83 big bets per hand AA - 135 times for 2.46 big bets per hand Now it is very true that for many of these hands I misplayed them mostly by playing the little ones too early and getting isolated or raised which kills my odds and / or makes them too expensive to play there. But in these weak games 22 paid me off just as much as 77 did... and I played both of them from pretty much anywhere I don't think you can or should throw position out the window with any of the smaller pairs. 55 should be mucked early but played late against many limpers. I think the only exception to this is when you know it is unlikely anyone will raise and that most people will call to see the flop and then chase weak draws. | ||
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| Re: LL advice on KQo and 99 (and other "medium" PP), gregj2, 5. Dec 2003 00:34 | ||
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| Good points all, sir, especially with regard to perhaps over-analyzing micro-limit play. Still, one has to start somewhere, and the bottom is as good a place as any. At the moment, I'm just trying to get some playing experience to augment my understanding of the "how-why", rather than trying to derive lists of Rules. As you point out (and I think as Palinya was agreeing), the texture of the game seems to be what is all important. If you do indeed find yourself in an especially Loose / Passive game I can see the value in playing 22 for one bet in EP if you're not likely to get raised, since 22 will (obviously) flop a set as often as any other PP. Of course, these kinds of circumstances will almost never obtain in a Real Game. But as I said, if I can come to undertstand why it's right to play 22 in a Loose / Passive game, but wrong to do it if there is much/any chance of a raise behind me, then I've learned something, and that ain't all bad. Of course, what was confusing me wasn't whether or not to play 22, but rather when to RAISE with a PP since you very seldom get to be first one in the pot in MP with, say, 99 at micro limits. And so I was trying to understand if it was right to raise with 99 in MP with, say, three limpers ahead of me. This whole discussion has, I think, given me some insight into the issue. (The short answer is no, barring unusual circumstances / player types / etc., right?) Thanks very much for your help. It is much appreciated. As always, I'd welcome any other pertinent advice you think would be relevant. Best, -greg | ||
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