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Server Time: 10/11/2008 11:26:47 PM PACIFIC |
 when to back off., mfs, 4. Dec 2003 11:29 | ||
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| It's a typical low limit game. You get dealt Qc2D in the BB, six people see the flop with no raise. The flop comes Qs8s2h. You are first to act and you bet, getting 3 callers. The turn brings a 3s putting a potential flush on the board. Is this a situation were you would follow through with a bet with your two pair or check it considering it is somewhat probable based on the boards texture that at least one person is in with a spade draw. I believe that if the board had been slightly more coordinated, for instance something like: QsTs2h a bet on the turn would definately be in order because now there are realistic straight draws out against you or something like middle pair.It is now less likely you are up against a spade draw and you need to protect your hand. With the first flop I think I would check it and call assuming there is no raise unless a rock comes out of nowhere and bets. In this situation it would come down to pot odds. By the way, what type of odds would you be looking for here to continue? I realize I am an 11-1 dog with my four outer but could I be getting a little lower than that from the pot considering considering the implied odds here it I hit at the river? If I do call here and don't hit do I payoff on the end? I think I would fold if it was an absolute rock and call if I had any doubts. I think if somebody else bet and I was the least bit suspicious I would pay it off. I would like your thoughts and comments please Thanks | ||
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| Re: when to back off., Blade, 4. Dec 2003 11:51 | ||
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| I think I would bet out with 3 to a flush as I do not want to give someone with four to flush a free card nor do I want someone with a low or middle pair with a A kicker a freebie as well. If I was raised I would at that point make a determination of the player. I would be most likely to call and see what the river brings either check calling 1 bet or folding if another S hits. I have seen a growing tendency of LL players to raise on the draw lately so I would be hesitant to fold automatically to a raise. However there are times where I would. | ||
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| Re: when to back off., Boftx, 4. Dec 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Others can answer the odds part much better than me (and the play of the hand as well) but here are my thoughts. I think you should bet out on the turn so as to make any flush draw pay for it. If anyone raises you think about a made flush or bigger hand and drop if you believe it. Keep in mind a raise could easily come from someone putting YOU on a flush draw and trying to make you pay for it. I would check/fold the river if a spade came off, otherwise bet it out and see who salutes. I don't think the 2-pair is especially strong, but it will beat a lot of what most people will stay with. I would consider a check/call on the river if a scare card came off like an A or K that could easily give someone a bigger 2-pair, i.e., A(Q,8,3,2) and K(Q,8,3,2) are both likely to chase the river (given the board you laid out in a "typical" (whatever that is anymore) LL game. One special circumstance, if I was raised on the turn, and I thought it was someone who put *me* on a flush draw, I would certainly bluff at the flush if a spade came on the river and I was heads-up with the raiser at that point. But those are a *lot* of conditions that have to be met. Jim | ||
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| Re: when to back off., Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 12:35 | ||
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| "I think if somebody else bet and I was the least bit suspicious I would pay it off. " Then it's better to bet yourself. | ||
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| Re: when to back off., shorn, 4. Dec 2003 12:43 | ||
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| I would bet it out on the turn. There are a ton of LL players who will call that flop with Qx or A8, so you can't give them a free look at the river. Also, why give a small spade a chance to snap you off? If you bet and are raised, continuing really depends on what you know of the raiser and how likely he/she would be to raise their flush in this spot. There are 5 BB's in the pot before you bet it out on the turn, so your bet + the raise makes 8-1 (assuming the other two fold) when it gets back to you. I think that this is close enough to call because you don't know for sure that the flush is out there (someone may have slowplayed AQ), so your hand may actually be good. Add that to the fact that you will mosrt likely get a call on the river when you hit, and I think it is plenty. | ||
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| Re: when to back off., KJo, 4. Dec 2003 13:47 | ||
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| If you don't bet out, you're gonna be guessing on the turn and river. If you check, someone behind you may see it as a sign of weakness and bluff at it, then you'll be wondering if he has the flush, and it will likely cost you another bet on the river to find out. If you bet out and get raised, you should still call (you still have outs and you may still have the best hand) but you can reevaluate on the river depending on what happens there. Eli on 4. Dec 2003 11:29 mfs wrote: > It's a typical low limit game. You get dealt Qc2D in the BB, six people see the > flop with no raise. The flop comes Qs8s2h. You are first to act and you bet, > getting 3 callers. The turn brings a 3s putting a potential flush on the board. > Is this a situation were you would follow through with a bet with your two pair > or check it considering it is somewhat probable based on the boards texture that > at least one person is in with a spade draw. > > I believe that if the board had been slightly more coordinated, for instance > something like: QsTs2h a bet on the turn would definately be in order because > now there are realistic straight draws out against you or something like middle > pair.It is now less likely you are up against a spade draw and you need to > protect your hand. > > With the first flop I think I would check it and call assuming there is no > raise unless a rock comes out of nowhere and bets. In this situation it would > come down to pot odds. By the way, what type of odds would you be looking for > here to continue? I realize I am an 11-1 dog with my four outer but could I be > getting a little lower than that from the pot considering considering the > implied odds here it I hit at the river? If I do call here and don't hit do I > payoff on the end? I think I would fold if it was an absolute rock and call if I > had any doubts. > > I think if somebody else bet and I was the least bit suspicious I would pay it > off. > > I would like your thoughts and comments please > Thanks > > | ||
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| Re: when to back off., mfs, 5. Dec 2003 10:40 | ||
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| Would your answers be different if I was playing middle limit poker? The reason I ask is that this hand is similar to an example I read in the book middle limit poker were he suggests checking in this situation. I suppose at the higher limit, people are in there for a better reason when they call the flop bet. | ||
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| Re: when to back off., Boftx, 5. Dec 2003 11:12 | ||
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| The first question you need to ask is what hands would stay on the flop with that board that would not have raised pre-flop? I think you can rule out AA,KK,AKs,AKo immediately. KQ would probably have raised on the flop, so i am guessing you are looking at hands like QJ, QT, AJ, etc. It's really hard to put anyone on Q8, but 88 is a real possibility here. I would be surprised at 22 being around. And just plain dumb-founded at 33. QQ would surely have raised pre-flop. I still think it's wrong to give a potential free card to anyone on the draw, but you should be raised by 88 or a made flush. Overall, I think checking is a bit too passive here given you have what might very well be the best hand at the moment. The river play probably remains the same. Jim | ||
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