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Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:43:23 PM PACIFIC |
 When good reads cost you the pot, 3Kings, 3. Dec 2003 21:46 | ||
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| Playing 5-10 online, I pick up 8-8 in middle posiition. Everyone folds to me and I limp in (thought about raising but didn't). The two players behind me fold. Small blind raises. BB calls. Knowing the SB woiuld raise with numerous hands to get heads up with me (a limper), I three-bet. SB caps and BB calls. Flop comes K 7 2 rainbow. It is checked to me. I wimp out and check feeling somone either has a K or an overpair to my eights. Flop is 6 putting two spades on board. SB bets and BB calls. Knowing the SB and BB, I would have called had the BB not called. At this point, I am getting 8 to 1 odds on a 22 to 1 draw so I fold. River is 8. Both players check. BB shows K 9 and wins the pot. SB had ATs I made the correct (guess) read but was very upset when the 8 came on the river. Looking back, I think betting the flop might have gotten me the free card on the turn and I am almost certain somone would have bet the river and I could have raised and won a good sized pot. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Brian462, 3. Dec 2003 22:31 | ||
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| Yea, the other day I had 42o from UTG but I decided to muck it. Sure enough the flop comes off 442... and yes these situations are exactly alike. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, SpaceAce, 4. Dec 2003 00:33 | ||
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| I don't know how you figure a good read cost you the pot. It sounds to me like paying attention to the pot odds saved you money. No, I'm serious. You said you were getting 8:1 on a 22:1 draw. This is a total no-brainer; throw the hand away. Maybe a bet on the flop would have gotten you a free card but probably not considering the King was out there and the pot was capped pre-flop. So what if the 8 came on the river? The next 22 times, it won't and if you're not getting the proper odds to draw for your third 8, you're throwing money away. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, shorn, 4. Dec 2003 05:46 | ||
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| I hate to say this, but I think you played this hand quite poorly. If you are going to play 88 from MP when no one else has entered the pot, you must raise pre-flop. Otherwise, you are allowing hands like QJ, JT, J9, and T9 to get in very cheaply when a raise might have folded them off. Secondly, when the SB raises pre-flop, I don't see any reason to three-bet it here unless you are thinking ahead that you will bet or raise ANY flop to try and represent that you slowplayed with AA of KK when you originally called. When it is checked to you on the flop, YOU MUST BET!!! If you get raised, you fold. But you basically have announced to the table that you don't have a King, so ytou have ompletely lost control of the hand. I think that if you had bet the flop, there was a good chance that the others would have folded or you at least would have folded off 1 of them, increasing your odds of winning the pot. I would have played this hand like this: Raise pre-flop, bet or raise the flop if checked or bet into, and if a card lower than a King came again on the turn, bet it out. If raised there, then I lay it down. You must play aggressively when you are in a hand or you will allow people to run over you OR catch up...both very bad. Sorry again if this was harsh. Steve | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Smokey27, 4. Dec 2003 08:15 | ||
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| I agree completely. You played the hand in an extremely schitzofrenic manner. You opponents were unable to put you on a hand and no idea where they stood. (Thats why the flop was checked to you)Pocket 88s are either a drawing hand (if there is volume) or a hand you want against few opponents. I would never open limp with it unless i was ug or in early position. I think it is a clear raise from middle position. There is no telling what would have happened if you raised, it would have been a totally different hand. If you raise, SB reraises I donthink the bb calls with sawmill. Then sb checks on flop you bet, take the free card on turn and you rasie river with trip eights. On another note I misplayed 88s yesterday, I was in the cutoff (2/4 partypoker) with eights and a middle player open raises. I three bet he caps and we take the flop headsup. Flop is jack high no 9 or 10, he bets I raise, he calls. I am sure he has AK now. I now check the hand down and am furious that i didn't act on my instincts and bet the best hand, I missed one maybe two big bets which is terrible. My fear of turn checkraises cost me some value, also a lack of confidence in my hand reading abilities. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Jojo, 4. Dec 2003 08:39 | ||
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| I got a good laugh out of brian's post. I still feel you made the right call to fold because you had a 22:1 odds, no argument. (I just got nailed by someone who beat me on 22:1 odds). But as far as you saying you had 8:1 payout, I disagree. You were MP against SB and BB, therefore last to call. Had you made your 8 on the river (From a 4th st. perspective) you were going to get a minimum of 1 more bet out of these guys and under some circumstances you would have been able to raise their bet and get between 2 and 3 more. Obviously things are always easier to look at in retrospect, but I feel only knowing what you could have known at 4th st, your payout odds were between 10-1 and 12-1, if you assume someone had at least a king pair. Regardless, the odds against you were 22-1, nice lay down. Disclaimer: I am not versed in poker theory, I merely run off of common sense theory. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Roy Cooke, 4. Dec 2003 09:15 | ||
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| I don't agree with how you played the hand for other reasons...But as far as the read goes..........It is inevitable that you will read hands correctly make the right play based on that read and then catch a card that wins the pot.........Learn to live with it........What is important is that you read the hand correctly and made the correct EV play....Do that over time and you will take the money down! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 3. Dec 2003 21:46 3Kings wrote: > Playing 5-10 online, I pick up 8-8 in middle posiition. Everyone folds to me > and I limp in (thought about raising but didn't). The two players behind me > fold. Small blind raises. BB calls. Knowing the SB woiuld raise with numerous > hands to get heads up with me (a limper), I three-bet. SB caps and BB calls. > Flop comes K 7 2 rainbow. It is checked to me. I wimp out and check feeling > somone either has a K or an overpair to my eights. Flop is 6 putting two spades > on board. SB bets and BB calls. Knowing the SB and BB, I would have called had > the BB not called. At this point, I am getting 8 to 1 odds on a 22 to 1 draw so > I fold. River is 8. Both players check. BB shows K 9 and wins the pot. SB > had ATs > > I made the correct (guess) read but was very upset when the 8 came on the > river. Looking back, I think betting the flop might have gotten me the free > card on the turn and I am almost certain somone would have bet the river and I > could have raised and won a good sized pot. > > | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, noiseboy, 4. Dec 2003 10:15 | ||
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| YOu should really consider raising pre-flop when playing a medium pair first in the pot from middle position. If you can get it heads up or three way, you don't necessarily need to flop an overpair or set to win with your 88s. Remember that any hand with two big cards will only pair the flop about a third of the time, so often your preflop raise will allow you to take down the pot on the flop. Even if it doesn't, it makes it easier to read others hands, ie, since you've already shown aggression, if someone starts messing with you, chances are they really have something. If all you've shown is weakness, then they might just be messing with you because they think you are weak and that they can take down the pot. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Blade, 4. Dec 2003 12:20 | ||
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| I completely agree, if in MP or LP with an EP raiser, if it gets folded around to you I think you have to three bet here or fold. I think by just cold calling you are not giving yourself much of a chance to win unimproved and without that possibility I don't think you have the correct odds to call. I think an exception (as there are always many) is when you know the EP player would not raise from there without a minimum of AK, I then think there is only one hand (AK) in which you are a slight favorite and 4-5) hands (JJ-AA, perhaps 1010) in which you are a significantly behind. In that situation I would fold. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Formless, 4. Dec 2003 10:26 | ||
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| When you limp with 88 in this situation I think you are giving up on your hand. I've done this in similar situations too. 88 has cost me more money than any other I can think of. Dan Negreanu wrote in his column once if there is a way to misplay 88, he will find it. So can I, so I look for a reason to fold this hand. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, Boftx, 4. Dec 2003 12:44 | ||
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| After 3-betting preflop you have to bet/raise the flop if you expect to take this pot down. Your check told everyone you had a pocket pair smaller than a K. You *might* have gotten the half-price river. SB would certainly have to think twice about betting out on the turn if you continue the aggression at the flop. BB seems too passive to bet out first. All this pre-supposes you are commited to playing this thru to the river, otherwise, why 3-bet preflop? Personally, I would've raised preflop and taken it from there without it being capped. If I decided to chase the river I would keep the aggression up and represent AA or AK at the flop. Jim | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, 3Kings, 4. Dec 2003 21:57 | ||
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| Thanks to everyone for their posts and confirming what I thought: I misplayed pre-flop. The main reason I didn't raise was that my raise was not getting any respect from the players behind me. Usually my raise was followed by two or three callers and then maybe a reraise. I was also down about $150 and although, I knew I should raise, I couldn't pull the trigger and lose more money.(My discipline had left me if you hadn't guessed). For some reason though, I was able to three-bet it pre-flop after SB raised When it got to me on the flop, I had no doubt in my mind that I should bet, but I didn't want to get check-raised, so i checked. I knew I was beat on the turn, so I folded, which was the right move at that time. | ||
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| Re: When good reads cost you the pot, LJH, 5. Dec 2003 13:10 | ||
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| 3kings. you did not read the hand at all. ljh | ||
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