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Server Time: 2/13/2012 3:34:04 PM PACIFIC |
 A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 11:03 | ||
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| I was doing great at the $0.50/$1.00 games and the $1/$2 game but the I read Hold'Em for Advanced Players and I started to try and implement some of those ideas trying to maximize my gains. it recommends doing a lot of things that have been costing me money. Semi-bluffing, Betting with just 2 overcards. Betting on open-ended straight and flush draws when I might have been able to just take a free card. As an example... I get AK in late position and raise it. I get 4 callers. The flop comes out 2, 5, 9 rainbow. It's checked to me and I bet it. I get 3 callers and a T on the turn. I bet again and get 2 callers. River comes up another 5. I bet and am check-raised so I fold to trip 5s. Is this just because the games I'm playing nobody knows how to fold when they should? In a low-limit game am I better to check and fold on the flop after it misses me? It only cost me 2 bets so far to see the flop. It will cost another 1 to see the turn and 2 more for the river. I am paying 2/3 of a bet for each card on the flop to try and make my pair. I can throw it away when I miss and pay 2/3 of a bet for each card on my next flop or I can pay out an additional full bet for 1 card... and then 2 full bets for the next card. Is it better to just walk away from the hand here since the odds of them folding are so low or do I look at the pot odds and say... well I still have 6 outs, lets see the turn. I'm thinking that in this case, it would have been better just to check the turn and taken the free card since my bet isn't likely to fold people much anyway and I'm not getting great odds on any additional money I put in. Then if the turn missed, don't pay for the river card since a full 2 bets for the next card just isn't worth it when I can use those 2 bets to raise the next time I get AK... and hopefully get a better flop. So basically I am thinking I need to play a simplier game on the low limit tables. Bluff less, don't make fancy plays. Play a mathematical game based mostly off of pot odds and when I hit they will still pay me because they like to chase. What do you think? Do I need to just get back to basics with these games. Cut out these plays all together or maybe I was just trying to do them way too often and people were seeing me as a bluffer. | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, NewSchool, 3. Dec 2003 11:14 | ||
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| The low limit tables are not meant for that strategy in my opinion. People chase anything, and everything in .5/1 and 1/2. Try no limit for that strategy, or a higher limit game. In the example you said, the guy apparently kept calling because he had a pair of fives, and then he gets the trip 5 on the river. Had that been a higher limit game, or no limit you would have been able to bet high enough to get him to fold his pair of nines. | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, NewSchool, 3. Dec 2003 11:14 | ||
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| pair of fives i meant | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Piers Majestyk, 3. Dec 2003 11:18 | ||
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| Again this is going to sound rough but from the plays you post you are not an advanced player. You need to get a handle on how to play the basics to beat a low limit game and then tighten up even more so. Fancy plays will just not get it done at low limits, if you hit a flop good bet it, check raise it, reraise it if you miss your AK and there are 4 or 5 players in the pot just check the damn thing and hope to improve on the turn or if last to act I might have thrown in a bet on the flop because I would likely then get to see the next two cards for free. I may make more money off people continuing to call with AK and AQ and let's throw in underpairs than all but the liveliest fish. If you miss the flop with these hands there is usually no reason to get involved in calling multiple bets or raises hoping to hit your 6 outer which may very well be no good. | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 11:29 | ||
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| Yeah, I know I'm not advanced yet... I was mainly reading that book because I had read everything else and it came highly recommended. As far as the hands I posted, I agree many of them are pretty bad. Overall I usually don't play this poorly. I am picking out some of my worst hands and I usually know what I did wrong. Usually when I was doing it, I knew I was taking a risk too... I'm not sure why I continue to make some of these plays when I know it's a mistake as I'm doing it. And then when I go back through my hand history, I can't believe I actually played it. Anyways I post them here to get some feedback that I might not have considered but also to hopefully embarrass myself by publicly posting my aweful play... maybe next time I won't be so stupid if I know I will have to post it here and have everyone laugh at me :) | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 11:24 | ||
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| HEFAP and low-limit are oxymorons. Do NOT try to put them together, for the most part | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Boftx, 3. Dec 2003 11:47 | ||
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| You pretty well stated the correct action in the last part of your post. I think a tight, aggressive mathematical game works best at those limits. Add just a touch of strategy with the check-raise once in a while, and as ATE has been pointing out, player notes are essential. Occasionally you can pick up an online tell on someone at use that to your advantage. As for the hand you mentioned, any pair will chase to the river with a board like that. The opponents will correctly put you on a big A, not a big pair, most of the time. The BB is getting decent odds to call a raise with almost any 2 cards with 4 or more players in the pot. Jim | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 11:53 | ||
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| Betting an unimproved AK on the river is usually a bad idea! Lee | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 12:17 | ||
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| what about betting it on the turn? | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 12:32 | ||
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| That's the way to go sometimes. The idea behind not betting an unimproved AK on the river is that you're never going to get called with a lesser hand, and if someone has come all this way calling with their middle pair, they're certainly not going to lay it down for one more bet. If they were on a busted draw, your AK high is going to be enough to win. Betting an unimproved AK, most of the time, means making a worse hand fold and having a better hand call. Lee | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, rdale, 3. Dec 2003 12:47 | ||
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| Taking the Advanced Theories and applying them across the board to low limit is recipe for disaster, when I raise for information, I rarely get the information back that I want, but a call and a costed bet. Some of the tactics are valuable though. Four card draws and semi-bluffing. If you see the flop six or seven handed, which is not unusual, and you flop the great flush potential in late position and it has been checked around to you, the semi-bluff is a good play here even at low limit hold'em, if you miss on the turn you are likely get a free river with the earlier rounds betting, unless of course the turn hits them hard. and if someone takes the lead back you can decide what to do. Flop reraising in low limit hold'em to try to get the free river seems to not really work all that well at most tables for me. Most people can't get past their two cards to think about what you might be reraising with. I find when I do hit my flush and continue to bet, that most people assume that I don't have the flush because of the semi-bluff, and will often get reraised by another more likely weaker flush. Semi-bluff good, stone cold bluff bad against people that don't understand the game and are willing to play any pair on the flop to the river. I think some of the advanced poker concepts might come more into play short handed than at a full table, and if you want to practice them, try it there... where AK can hold up better unimproved. In a low limit shorthanded game, fo the most part, players all paying much more attention, and aggressive play/bluffing/semi-bluffing/reraising for information becomes a fairly essential part of the game. | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, LJH, 3. Dec 2003 14:04 | ||
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| PALINYA, READ THAT BOOK MORE CAREFULLY. YOU CANNOT PLAY THAT TYPE OF GAME AGAINST BRAIN DEADS. LJH | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 14:45 | ||
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| yeah, I do seem to remember something about those strategies not working real well against low limits... Oh well back to rebuilding my bankroll. I have logged about 35-40,000 hands and although I'm not up, I'm not down either. (I just started playing a few months ago) I know I can grind away at the $0.50 games and slowly build a bankroll. Then the last couple times I have gotten my bankroll to around $300.00 I go on a wild tilt or start trying new strategies and slowly work my way down to my initial investment. Then I get back to just trying to play basic tight / aggressive without any fancy play and my bankroll starts to grow again. I know I can do it... I just have to not lose focus next time I start getting my account up there again. I catch myself doing things and wondering why I did it. Once my bankroll gets dangerously low though, I quit making most of these mistakes and for some reason can suddenly play a lot better. Because of this my bankroll has done the yo-yo thing a couple times already. The good thing is I keep learning each time and when I finally decide to smarten up, I find it easier than the last time. I just tend to start gambling after a week or so of having profitable sessions. I guess I just get over-confident and start holding hands that I really shouldn't be. Hopefully now that I have identified this about myself, I will be able to prevent it this time. | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Candide, 3. Dec 2003 14:26 | ||
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| Palinya, I've read a number of books now, and have come to realize I read them "out of order". I sadly started with Helmuths book, then super system, then HFAP, then Theory of poker and finally Winning low limit holdem. What I would recomend, having read those and seen the same as you, is to stop reading HFAP and go buy Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Holdem book. He leans heavily on Sklansky, but also notes out the many times, such as you are seeing, that those plays just simply do not work at your limits. Sklansky mentions this as well, but doesn't emphasize it like Jones does. The book is easy to read, and explains things well. After that, I would suggest Theory of Poker by Sklansky as well. A lot of what he touches upon in HFAP is explained in detail here. Also, it builds very well on Jones book, as the two cover the same concepts, ToP just goes into more detail. The key here is to keep in mind what Jones says...straightforward solid poker is what will win at the low limits. The driving force should be to hit the flop hard or fold. Win big, lose little. Don't play marginal hands which you might have been able to pull off on a 10-20 game with people who are better players. Just get your money in when you have the best hand or the draw to the best hand. You will still get drawn out, but overtime you will win more than you lose with those types of hands (ie, playing suited connectors, hit 2 pair, an open ended straight draw, or get out, perhaps ignoring the flush). I also find that Ax suited goes WAY up in value in these games...but you MUST fold if you don't have a good flush draw or 2 pair. Your Ace will be outkicked quite often. Hope that helps. Oh, as to the rest of the books. I would burn Helmuths, super system would probaly be next but keep in mind you are against the bad players he mentions that you can't put a move on, and then HFAP. HFAP is more of a reference book once you have gone through it...You realize you didn't slowplay that quite well, and you go back and review that section, or whatever. Jason | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 14:53 | ||
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| Yeah, Lee Jones was the first book I read... and I do remember how often he stressed that fancy plays just don't work in low limit. For some reason when I got about 3/4 of the way through HEFAP that advice seemed to wear off somewhat... and I started gambling more and playing crap largely because I had such a good winning streak up until that point. I guess I started feeling like I could get away with playing KJ in early position... you know, just this one time... then it happened again and again and a little more regularly and before I knew it, I was on a full tilt (that lasted about a week) Oh well, live and learn... it's back to the basics for me :) | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 14:56 | ||
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| that and half the examples in HEFAP start out saying something like... Suppose you are holding 84s in early position and the flop comes.... I remember seeing those and thinking, "who cares? I would have folded by then" | ||
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| Re: A recent losing streak, kennycatkiller, 4. Dec 2003 16:27 | ||
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| toward the end of your post, you answered your own question. that is, in very low limit games, where the players are not sophisticated, fancy plays only cost you money. sure, raise with AK, but do not expect to be able to bull your way through to the river very often. They will call you every time with ANYTHING. Forget about bluffing; just play solid, mathematically correct poker and win. kennycatkiller | ||
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