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Server Time: 8/30/2008 9:34:52 AM PACIFIC |
 Playing a big draw., mfs, 3. Dec 2003 10:35 | ||
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| I had AcTc in the BB. It was a fairly loose somewhat aggressive 4-8 holdem game B&M. UTG (loose passive) calls next player(very tight only raises with big pairs) raises, a loose aggressive player in MP calls as well as two late position players who are both tight weak. I decide to just call here figuring that I would have to hit the flop hard to continue considering the legit raise from EP and perhaps more importantly the cold calls by the tight weak players. If I flopped an ace it definately couldn't stand too much heat. With AK or AQ clubs I would have reraised. The flop comes 8c4cTd. I have a great draw and I am a favorite over the guy with the probable overpair. I decide to go for the check-raise since the preflop raiser was on my left. He bets everyone calls and I raise. The guy to my left folds and the preflop raiser reraises, everyone calls and I cap the betting. The turn brings a Jh (8c4cTdJh). Here is were I am not sure of what to do. I am pretty confident that I am playing from behind at the moment to the raisers overpair. The Jack could have made someone a straight and its possible the raiser has pocket Jacks. Should I continue to bet my big draw? or should I check and call? Also, what if just a blank hit the turn? would you continue to bet? I ended up betting the turn figuring that if I get raised I still have outs to win. I figure its a big draw lets make a big pot. Everyone calls, a blank hits the river, everyone checks, and the preflop raiser wins with pocket QQ How would you play this? Thanks | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., ADAM THE EXPERT, 3. Dec 2003 11:02 | ||
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| Well, the votes are in!!! While I would like someone to completely explain why in 1978 when I was studying business communication, and "block format" (all capital letters) was considered acceptable, even preferred, and now, somehow they are "hard" to read. Anyway, on to this question. This brings up a very important concept, in fact, THE most important concept, in all of hold em Rule number one: If there is ANY reasonable chance, that you MIGHT have the best hand, AND your bet will knock out someone who could still beat you, then you MUST bet. With your nut flush draw, and five callers, you are receiving greater pot odds (5-1) than the odds of making the hand (4-1) !!!! And, this presupposes that the flush is all you could make. As it turns out, Aces and tens were also "outs" to win. Of course, you didn't know that at the time, but it was a reasonable assumption, that a ten would be good, and probably the ace as well. There is all sorts of B.S. betting in hold em. The bettor could have had a KQs, in your suit, and be betting a big draw. So, I not only would have bet out, but if someone to my right bet, I would RAISE, hoping to knock someone out, the times that my tens were actually good, and of course, i have many outs, the times that they are not. Also, we gain future value, by being seen raising with "only a flush draw" We must bet flush draws on the turn as well as the flop SOME of the time!! Other wise, it's too obvious what we have (flop 10c 4c 7 bet. turn 2h check. GEE sure looks like a flush draw. Next vote: Do you think that Adam the Expert, is entitled to make some money, for his almost 2 decades of hard study and experience? If I came out with a line of books, would you consider that I've "sold out" or "gone commercial" It's highly unlikely that my Attention Deficit Disorder, would allow me to actuall complete a book, and I have no way to market it anyway, but I sure would like to. Other people are making money, on books that range from mostly bogus, to completly bogus, so why should Adam the EXpert not be able to make some bucks, with the best information available, in the history of poker. (and written in the most effective and entertaining style) NO FREE CARDS!!!! have a hand that is reasonably possible to still be the best, bet it up. This doesn't mean that you come charging ahead, with a pair of deuces, but with the action you described, and the cards on the board, the tens are going to be good, a good portion of the time. And, the last thing you want, is to check and allow someone to beat you, when they were not going to call. Hope Y'all enjoyed the new (sickening) small letter style, I don't know how long I can keep it up. P.S. Adam the Expert is going to be in Tunica Mississippi, in Januarary. A.T.E. | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 11:17 | ||
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| I wouldn't think you sold out or gone commercial. If you can write books and people will buy them then great, you should go for it! | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., MozMan, 3. Dec 2003 17:22 | ||
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| on 3. Dec 2003 11:02 ADAM THE EXPERT wrote: Hey Adam- A couple comments for you: > Well, the votes are in!!! While I would like someone to completely > > explain why in 1978 when I was studying business communication, > > and "block format" (all capital letters) was considered acceptable, > > even preferred, and now, somehow they are "hard" to read. I understand what you mean. As a web professional, I spent several years as a communications specialist, converting printed materials to multimedia. In the print world, especially in relation to signage, block format is still a great way to go; but the rules are different for electronic presentation, because it is a different media. Block format, and serif-fonts simply don't work well on the web. They are harder to read on a screen, but easier to read on paper. Weird, I know... but that's just how it is. :^) > > Next vote: Do you think that Adam the Expert, is entitled > > to make some money, for his almost 2 decades of hard > > study and experience? If I came out with a line of books, > > would you consider that I've "sold out" or "gone commercial" > Adam- Any man or woman is entitled to whatever they can garner for themselves honestly. If you can get books written and published, then more power to you! Our country is founded on capitalism; there is nothing wrong with selling your knowledge. "Selling out" is a fallacy. -Moz "I bent my wookie..." | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 11:04 | ||
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| Good play on the flop. When you miss the turn, you're odds of making a hand go down a lot, so I'd check and call. The preflop raiser is very likely to bet and have everyone call, but if you get and he raises, it might shut some people out. You aren't going to win this pot without a showdown, so you might as well make it cheap to get there when you're no longer the favorite to win. Lee | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., Blue Sky, 3. Dec 2003 11:18 | ||
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| MFS, The first thing I would say is that I like your aggressive style post flop... Here is how I would of played the hand..FOLD PRE-FLOP...You have already said that the pre-flop raiser is solid...so you have to put him on a hand that dominates yours...AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ....now with LP cold calling raises I tend to make the assumption that some of the other Aces are eaten up already and even if you do hit one on the flop your probably dominated b/c of your weak kicker... Post flop...You played excellent...you have top pair top kicker with the nut draw...make the pot big right here...The checkraise was beatuiful....you knew the MP pre-flop raiser was going to bet and by checkraising instead of betting out you were able to get the $ in from the bettor and then a few callers... The turn always gets tougher...now you don't have TPTK anymore and you have to be pretty sure that the MP player has an over pair and with the possiblity that someone has now picked up a straight you should check and call...knowing that you must pick up the flush to win the pot.... You showed strenght from EP on the flop and it was not respected...they didn't believe you flopped a set and even so they are drawing to better hands so betting does nothing for you here... Overall I like the style of play...fine tune it a bit and you will drag some monsters... | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., KJo, 3. Dec 2003 13:37 | ||
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| I really think folding pre-flop is a bad play. He's in the BB so it only costs one bet, and there are 5 other players, and since he has a hand that can hit multiple ways it's clearly a good call. And I wouldn't say that KK or QQ totally dominates ATs, there are several ways he can hit his hand and have the best hand. Eli on 3. Dec 2003 11:18 Blue Sky wrote: > MFS, > > The first thing I would say is that I like your aggressive style post flop... > > Here is how I would of played the hand..FOLD PRE-FLOP...You have already said that > the pre-flop raiser is solid...so you have to put him on a hand that dominates > yours...AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ....now with LP cold calling raises I tend to make the > assumption that some of the other Aces are eaten up already and even if you do hit > one on the flop your probably dominated b/c of your weak kicker... > > Post flop...You played excellent...you have top pair top kicker with the nut > draw...make the pot big right here...The checkraise was beatuiful....you knew the MP > pre-flop raiser was going to bet and by checkraising instead of betting out you were > able to get the $ in from the bettor and then a few callers... > > The turn always gets tougher...now you don't have TPTK anymore and you have to be > pretty sure that the MP player has an over pair and with the possiblity that someone > has now picked up a straight you should check and call...knowing that you must pick > up the flush to win the pot.... You showed strenght from EP on the flop and it was > not respected...they didn't believe you flopped a set and even so they are drawing to > better hands so betting does nothing for you here... > > Overall I like the style of play...fine tune it a bit and you will drag some > monsters... | ||
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| Re: Playing a big draw., Blue Sky, 4. Dec 2003 15:18 | ||
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| KJo, You need to re-run the math here. You don't think ATs is totaly dominated by big pocket pairs?...K's, Q's, and J's are all 2 to 1 favorites over ATs. (67% to 33%, as ran on twodimes.) One of the biggest places that we all lose money is trying to defend our blinds...hey its only one more small bet, right? Multiply that by the number of times you do that in a night and we are all probably losing 4 to 5 BB's a session. (You also need to fear the possible limp re-raise and now its only one more small bet again.) A quick thought to keep in mind...even if you hit your Ace you have no idea where you stand... anyone with an Ace better kicker is going to atleast call you down if they don't raise you and put you in the situation of calling them down with a worse hand. Why go all the way to the river with a hand you don't know will win or not and all of this b/c you didn't want to let go of one small bet. The point I'm trying to make is that MFS is against a known raiser who only bumps the pot with big pairs which statistacly outweigh his hand and he is more then likely going to get himself in trouble (not picking on him in particular, b/c we all do it.) One key phrase to remember is that money saved now is money that you don't have to earn back later. | ||
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