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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:35:56 PM PACIFIC |
 Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 09:19 | ||
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| I've raised in a semi-early position with anything from 99 to QQ. I've made a fairly standard raise of 3-5xx BB in a tourney or cash game (no-limit). I've been called behind by one person and we are heads-up. Example from last night: I hold JJ and the flop comes K 10 x. The player who has called me tends to be loose aggressive but knows I have something so typically he wouldn't have called if he had total crap. It's possible but not likely. I put him on either two high cards or a smaller pocket pair. What is the best play here with the K on the flop? Do I bet out knowing there is a good chance my jacks are still good? If so, how much do I bet? Do I check hoping for him to check as well? Do I check and then if he bets make my best decision if I'm beat? If I made a good read as to having the best hand I guess I'd go all-in and force him to pay maximum amount to draw. I can't figure out what the best option is here. Of course since he knows I'm a tight player and will fold unless I know I'm ahead, he bets $20 and forces me to fold the best hand. He later told me he had AQ which gave him two overcards and a gutshot draw. I've had 99 before when a K and two rags came on the flop. This time I was acting after him. He checked. I bet and he called. He checked turn and so did I he was slowplaying a K. He bet the river and I called figuring maybe he's trying to buy the pot only to see AK. Help please. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 10:17 | ||
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| on 3. Dec 2003 09:19 Jordan wrote: > I've raised in a semi-early position with anything from 99 to QQ. This was a tad confusing- are you telling us what your opponent was putting you on? Are you talking about past hands, as a setup for this one? And what is semi-early position anyway- 3 from the button? I've made a > fairly standard raise of 3-5xx BB in a tourney or cash game (no-limit). Also confusing- are we talking about a tournament hand, a ring game hand, or your past play for the person to read on THIS hand? I've > been called behind by one person and we are heads-up. Example from last night: > I hold JJ and the flop comes K 10 x. The player who has called me tends to be > loose aggressive but knows I have something so typically he wouldn't have called > if he had total crap. It's possible but not likely. I put him on either two > high cards or a smaller pocket pair. > > What is the best play here with the K on the flop? Do I bet out knowing there > is a good chance my jacks are still good? If so, how much do I bet? You're either betting or check-folding here, unless you think he has total trash, The question is, what are you doing on the turn and/or river if you get a lot of pressure? what cards except a Jack (which would have cost you big) or a Q (which you don't want to come, actually) or 9 on the turn would you want to see? How will he react if you put in 10 BB or so in this spot? What about 30? Unless it's an overwhelming favorite to knock out dangerous hands that he might have here, or get him to call with the lower pair, you're really going to have to think hard on the turn. You probably want to take this hand now. Do I check > hoping for him to check as well? NO! What do you gain, unless he wouldn't bet unless he has some kind of hand? You won't define much and risk giving the free card. > Do I check and then if he bets make my best decision if I'm beat? If I made a good read as to having the best hand I guess I'd go all-in and force him to pay maximum amount to draw. If your read is good, then forcing him to decide for big money might be best here. With his gutshot, he's probably gone for any decent-sized bet. I can't figure out what the best option is here. Of > course since he knows I'm a tight player and will fold unless I know I'm ahead, > he bets $20 and forces me to fold the best hand. He later told me he had AQ > which gave him two overcards and a gutshot draw. I've had 99 before when a K > and two rags came on the flop. This time I was acting after him. He checked. > I bet and he called. He checked turn and so did I he was slowplaying a K. He > bet the river and I called figuring maybe he's trying to buy the pot only to see > AK. Given the risk, based on previous hands you've played, I'd either bet the flop or check-fold as you did. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:28 | ||
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| Boy oh boy! So it seems you're looking for that one piece of advice that will allow you to play these situations near perfectly. Unfortunately, you picked one of the hardest situations to play, and in a no limit game at that! First you have to realize, there is a vast difference between a cash game and a tournament game. People play tighter in tournaments because they don't want to go broke. In a tournament situation, I would likely muck KQ to an early raiser, because it only figures to get me in trouble most of the time, and I would probably just call a raise with an AK. In a cash game, I might call with the KQ, or even raise depending on who opened. I might play AK more aggressively as well! But, it seems as though you're talking about a cash game since the bet was $20, so I'll talk about that. Now it comes down to knowing your player, and there is no easy way to do this. Would he play a KQ to your raise? KQ is one of the weakest no limit hands, and I really don't like to play it unless I have a good reason. Maybe this guy feels differently! Would he reraise you or just call with an AK? If you check the flop, will he automatically bet, or will he check if he truly didn't hit anything? It seems that a lot of the lower limit no limit players I see tend to bet whenever the other guy shows weakness in a heads up pot, which is part of the reason hands like this are so tough. In general, if I fire before the flop and I'm heads up, I fire after the flop, unless I think I have a very good reason not to. I play no limit ring games very aggressively, and I'd hate to disappoint people by not betting. If he calls, then you have to figure he has something, either a draw or he hit the king. Revaluate the situation on the turn, but more than likely, you're better off checking and folding. Sometimes you may fold the best hand, but you have to be able to do that in no limit poker. Wow, I sure did write a lot only to say "bet the flop and then go from there!" Hope this helps Jordan. Lee | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 11:10 | ||
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| You made me think about this type of situation and now that I do, I think could have bet at least 5-10 bucks on the flop representing AK which he could have put me on. Online this is a different story since it's harder to read the most likely holding for a player. I'm thinking he would have probably folded unless of course he hit an Ace or a Queen yet the guys I play with do draw occasionally. He would probably play KQ to a raise. Earlier while we were playing I had raised with AA under the gun and got called by the guy right next to me with AJ and they know I only raise with high pairs and AK in most situations. I've had these guys reraise me with KQ when I've held KK. They are a little off on their raising standards. They see two face cards and don't even consider the possibility of being outkicked or beaten by an overpair. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, ReMMy, 3. Dec 2003 11:28 | ||
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| Hey Jordan, I have to agree with Lee that this is one of the more difficult situations to face in NL. Unfortunately there is no correct play to always make, which is the beauty of NL. Can you give us some exact #'s for this hand? All we know is that you made a raise of 3-5BB(you are talking about big blinds here?) but then check folded to a $20 bet, well is this .25/.50 or 5/10? More often than not, when you raise with 1010 - QQ you are going to be facing an overcard on the board, and this can be very difficult when someone behind you simply called. The one thing I can say is that if you then check fold in that situation your opponents are going to pick up on that big time! This may inspire them to play crap behind you when they are close to the button if everyone else folds to your raise because: a. they might get lucky with 2 pair or trips on the flop b. they be able to bluff you off a medium or big pair if the flop brings a K or Q c. you often check the flop so they can take a free card if they have a draw. You might want to consider firing out a 2/3 pot bet in this situation most of the time. Also, if the table has players with weak raising requirements, why not try calling and going for a reraise if that will leave you heads up with one of the weaker players? Hope that helps a little, send us exact #'s and maybe we can offer some better advice... Good times, ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, shorn, 3. Dec 2003 12:23 | ||
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| Given that he didn't re-raise you preflop and just call, you can most likely eliminate the following hands: AA, KK, QQ and AK. So, it is far more likely that your Jacks are good here and would go ahead and bet the size of the pot. If he calls you, then you shut down unless you improve. Since you state that he knows you are a tight player, he will put you on a big King when you bet, so if he calls it is very likely he has a King (or is slowplaying two pair or better in which case you are close to drawing dead). Checking this flop heads up after you have been the aggressor is not a good play in my opinion, as it basically tells him that you don't have a King and that you will most likely fold to a big bet. Put him to the test and if he calls, then shut it down and fold to a big turn bet. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 12:38 | ||
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| This is some great advice guys. We were playing .25/.50. I raised it to 3 dollars so (6x the blinds). I knew this guy hadn't seen many hands and he always overvalues his hand. A few hands ago he was so happy to see KQs which is a good hand and all but nothing super special in an 7-8 handed game. I was UTG and he was the only caller. So I guess the pot had 6.75 in it. These guys know I like to "protect" my pairs and hands so I'm thinking a 10 dollar bet would have definitely folded him off of it but might have gotten me in trouble if he did hit the flop. Maybe a $5 bet? | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, ReMMy, 3. Dec 2003 12:43 | ||
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| Definately, you have to represent that pair of kings or better and see what happens. He's an idiot for betting triple? the pot. Remember that he has a tendencty to overbet his bluffs, if he doesn't overbet his made hands as well or doesn't mix it up, you may have a great read on him... ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, shorn, 3. Dec 2003 12:48 | ||
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| Actually, I would view a $10 bet as suspicious as there aren't that many situations where over-betting the pot is appropriate. Of course, if this opponent is a space cadet and doesn't think about what bet sizes mean, then maybe that is irrelevant. But, on the off chance he is holding a King, I would probably bet like $6 here as that should tell him that you view your hand as strong and is similar to a "protecting your hand" bet. It also saves you $$ if you are beaten. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, ReMMy, 3. Dec 2003 13:05 | ||
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| Exactly, for the same reason I said he was an idiot for over betting the pot on his bluff, there's no need to "protect" with a bet that is larger than the pot. People that overbet will provide you with a large % of your winnings in NL games, you just need to identify them and work that to your advantage. If the pot was $6 here, I would probably bet $4. I like to keep my bets at the same %'s for the most part, especially on the flop. When the pot is $40 on the turn, I may bet $10, but very rarely will I bet out $2 into an $8 pot on the flop. Hope that makes sense, also I don't know how much stock you want to put in my NL game theory since the only reading on NL I've done is a small amount out of Super System. ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, PairTheBoard, 3. Dec 2003 13:02 | ||
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| imo, make the smallest possible bet that might conceivably be made if you were playing AA, KK, or AK. The bet should be large enough so that if you get called you can be fairly sure you are beat. But it should be small enough so as to minimize the loss when you are beat. At least this should be your target amount for the bet. You might play around with it as well. Don't make it too much of a tickle, but maybe bet a little less, inducing a call from a hand you can beat yet still enough to deter a playback either on the flop or the turn. If he just calls an Under-Target bet you might put a similar one out on the turn and/or river some of the time. In other words, try to play it similar to Limit. Force HIM to make the big NL chip commitment. If he does then you can be very certain you are beat and make the agressive laydown. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 13:16 | ||
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| so you're saying to bet i guess 3 dollars maybe? isn't that giving him a cheap card to pull his A or Q or gutshot on the turn? I think you are right about the overbetting the bot. I really thought he was making a play on me by betting such a large amount. It just didn't make any sense why you'd bet 20 dollars into a 7 dollar pot after I've checked other than to push me off the hand. I'll remember that. Remmy: you give good advice as do many on this board so I asked you as well since you're a regular poster, I forgot about PairTheBoard, he seems to also give good advice as do Schuster, Shorn, and 4 POKER :) and others I've definitely forgotten | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, shorn, 3. Dec 2003 13:22 | ||
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| $3 isn't enough IMO. That size (which would give him 10/3 to call roughly) tells me that either you are afraid that your under pair is no good, or you are begging me to call your pocket Kings. If you have done such a thing with a set already, then maybe it is a good play. But, if not, you need to bet larger so that he doesn't even think that you don't have a King. $5 or $6 shows strength and isn't overbetting which you don't want to do. Also, if he is a loose player, he might call 3 with a lower pair than yours or an Ace (in this case AQ, both of which beat you) and hit a miracle card on 4th street. The pot is already big enough to win right there, so you need to be aggressive to win it. If he is timid, he may even fold something like KT or KJ even (doubtful, but there are those suckers out there...). | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 13:31 | ||
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| These guys will call with underpairs after the flop hoping to hit a set. They way overbet the pot pre and post flop with small pairs. Last night 4 or 5 of us had limped in and in the BB, this same guy raised it to 5.50 with pocket 4's. He showed us his hand after. He'd most likely call 3 bucks but probably not 5 or 6 unless he had a King. If he had a King, he'd most likely raise me and only release if I re-raised him back. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, PairTheBoard, 3. Dec 2003 13:57 | ||
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| Well it that's the case it makes the $3 bet much better imo. How do you determine "The Optimal Bet" in general? Shouldn't it be an amount slightly more than that amount which on average makes for bad calls? In NL the problem is complicated by how well you can get away from it when they hit a big draw. Consistenly Overbetting the optimal amount is an indicator that you have trouble making the agressive laydown when necessary. At least, that's what I'm telling myself these days. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, ReMMy, 3. Dec 2003 14:08 | ||
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| When you're out of position, you can increase your bet % compared to the pot. While a pot sized bet of $6 would be overkill IMO if it was checked to you, since you are first to act $5 or $6 is acceptable since you want to put the pressure on him. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, PairTheBoard, 3. Dec 2003 13:45 | ||
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| Yes, I agree $3 is not enough. When I say "Play it like Limit" I mean keep the bet in the range of the Turn Bet, as the flop bet is generally too small. In this case the small bet limit established was the $3 called pre-flop. The Target Bet here might be $6, which you might tickle a little to $5. You might even get away with $4. If it was a SNG, multiplying by 100, and you both had less than 1000 chips, just a little 300 chip bet should get his attention pretty well. In fact, in that case 200 might be about right. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 13:46 | ||
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| Another situation I deal with his hitting mid-pair with a weak kicker on the flop or top pair and a weak kicker in early position before 2 to 3 players. If I don't bet my hands they will typically bet their flush or straight draws VERY STRONG in late position as to push everybody else out of the hand, but they really don't care if you call as they love to gamble. Most of the times I'm too nervous to call thinking I might be running into a really good hand the time I do call. I do remember one night getting sick of them doing this so I started to bet out and/or steal from early position since my bets do get a lot of respect since i'm the tightest player at the table. I guess I'm kind of answering my own question but was wondering if you guys think betting out with these types of hands as semi-bluffs might slow them down from trying these bluffs and putting me in bad situations. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, ReMMy, 3. Dec 2003 14:11 | ||
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| Mid pair/Good kicker or Top pair/Weak kicker out of position SUCKS! Stay away from these hands. I pretty much always check and fold unless a bet comes from late position from a loose aggressive player, at which point I will raise and if it becomes heads up I will probably make a play at the pot even if I don't improve. Thats the beauty of position and why it is SOOO important in NL. Because you're last to act you can bet your draws aggressively because you get to see what everyone else does before acting again next turn. You also often end up with the option to take a free card if checked around to. If you find your in this position a lot, you may want to tighten up your starting requirements from EP and MP considerably. ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, PairTheBoard, 3. Dec 2003 14:17 | ||
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| I could use some advice for those situations myself Jordan. I think it depends on just how good the draws are that they bet heavy. Some draws are good enough to make them the favorite with 2 cards to come, even if you have them beat now. Will they bet their top-top made hands similarly? If so then even if they bet lesser draws heavy, the combination of chances that you are either beat or will get outdrawn makes their bets good. If they bet their top-top type hands less heavy and their heavy bets are almost certainly come-bets, and/or they make such bets with really poor draws, then I think you just have to call them down with less than what is normally comfortable. In limit I'd probably take a stand with the hands you described. In NL, I'd probably want something a little better, unless heads-up, in which case your Aces no kicker, or even second pair, are maybe strong enough. Those are just my thoughts which are still under construction. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, PairTheBoard, 3. Dec 2003 14:23 | ||
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| btw, I agree with ReMMY about not playing those hands in EP. The problem should only arise when you're in the blinds. | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, palman, 3. Dec 2003 14:10 | ||
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| Early in tournaments I limp with those hands. Cash games are a totally different story. Some people in tournaments push all in with J's and Q's early.... I limp with these hands because if someone else preflop raises it helps disguise the strength of my hand, and if I don't hit I dont get burned or play a guessing game. I play them much like I would 2's and 3's | ||
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| Re: Advice Wanted from 4 POKER, Schuster, Shorn, Remmy and others, Jordan, 3. Dec 2003 14:35 | ||
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| yeah most of the times I was referring to was when I was in the blinds......I don't play crap up front :) | ||
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