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When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Eman, 3. Dec 2003 07:50
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Heres a hand where I tried for the free card play but didnt work and I was lost after that and didnt know what to do for the rest of the hand.

This was on UB 3/6 holdem. Im one off the button and get dealt KQs.

UTG playyer calls (hes a solid player, doesnt play that many hands, never raises UTG unless he has AA, KK., folds almost anything else so my initial read on him was AKo)
MP calls as well (fairly loose, sees alot of flops, but gets out when hes in trouble, check raises his solid hands, plays passive when hes not sure, hardly every leads out with a bet)
LP calls (new to table, read)
I raise and make it two bets with my KsQs. (all call) (reassuring me that UTG has AKo)

Flop comes As 9s 10h
UTG bets (im still thinking he has AKo)
MP calls (could very well have A10 or AQ or AJ, i figure hed fold any lower pocket pair because im still left to act and can raise . He sees a lot of flop but dumps when he gets no piece of it. SO im pretty sure he got a peice of the flop too. but he is so passive that he wont automatically raise if he had A10???)
LP calls (still no clue about him)
I raise (i have 12 clean outs to the nuts, either a straight which maybe split or the nut flush) (also i maybe be able to get a free card) (but im almost certain if UTG has AKo hell reraise)

UTG makes it three bets. (ugggh!!!)
Almost positive he has AKo and kinda expected that reraise.
MP calls, EP calls, and I call (the pot is huge at this point)

My free card play didnt work but I have a lot of outs.

Turn is a 8c(As 9s 10h)

UTG Bets out
MP raises (he either waited till the turn to raise with A10 or he has A8, he plays Ax all the time)
LP reraises ?? (still no clue) Two pair? made Q high Straight? a set?

Three bets to you with a pot of 42 BB. I called with those odds.
River is a 10s (not the spade i wanted to see)
UTG checks, MP bets, LP calls, I call as well, UTG folds (positive he had AK)
MP had A10, LP had the Q high striaght

Any suggestions on how i played? This is just one example of a "free card attempt" that didnt work. When you bet out for a free card on the turn or river, and it doesnt work, is it best to just let go of the hand? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Any criticism about this hand welcomed.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 08:35
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on 3. Dec 2003 07:50 Eman wrote:
>
> Flop comes As 9s 10h
> UTG bets (im still thinking he has AKo)
> MP calls (could very well have A10 or AQ or AJ, i figure hed fold any lower
> pocket pair [snip] SO im pretty sure he got a peice of the
> flop too. but he is so passive that he wont automatically raise if he had
> A10???)

He should have, but he might have been waiting for the turn to insure the flush card didn't come. Most people will call raises, which are "cheap" on the flop, with the flush draw

> LP calls (still no clue about him)
> I raise (i have 12 clean outs to the nuts, either a straight which maybe split or the nut flush) (also i maybe be able to get a free card) (but im almost certain if UTG has AKo hell reraise)

Raise to build the pot, or just call- you already prepared yourself for the "no free card" reraise by UTG. Go with your reads.
>
> UTG makes it three bets. (ugggh!!!)
> Almost positive he has AKo and kinda expected that reraise.
> MP calls, EP calls, and I call (the pot is huge at this point)
>
> My free card play didnt work but I have a lot of outs.

What free card play? If you "know" UTG has AK and expect him to reraise, then you never had a free card play possible on the FLOP. You were looking for it on the turn, which is the typical "free card" play, but UTG smartly bet into the non-flush card

>
> Turn is a 8c(As 9s 10h)
>
> UTG Bets out
> MP raises (he either waited till the turn to raise with A10 or he has A8, he
> plays Ax all the time)
> LP reraises ?? (still no clue) Two pair? made Q high Straight? a set?
>
> Three bets to you with a pot of 42 BB. I called with those odds.

You MIGHT cap it here (if it's NOT a cap, don't do it) with the draw to the nut straight and probable nut flush. That might gain you the use of the free card play in the future, or allow you to take advantage when you have a two-pair/trips hand and the two-flush flops again.
You have to be comfortable with variance, but I'd build the pot here.

> River is a 10s (not the spade i wanted to see)
> UTG checks, MP bets, LP calls, I call as well, UTG folds (positive he had AK)
>
> MP had A10

Ouch- there's the variance.
>
> Any suggestions on how i played? This is just one example of a "free card
> attempt" that didnt work. When you bet out for a free card on the turn or
> river, and it doesnt work, is it best to just let go of the hand?

No. You can slow down, like you did, or try to disguise your hand with aggression. On future hands, if this is going to be their general reaction to potential free-card situations, then slow down and wait.

nothing much to criticize here- you were trapped in the hand by the flop, drawing to winners. you were just nailed by one card.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, shorn, 3. Dec 2003 12:29
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Perfect analysis Easy. I think the hand was played well and he was trapped.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Daniel Longfield, 3. Dec 2003 08:38
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Very interesting hand story. My suggestion would have been to capp it on the flop. The capp would be a wager of 3 to 1 with 12 nut outs by itslef not including pot odds. I think capping it is the right play if there is any chance they will check to you on the next street. I dont think this will happen as the ug player is solid, but what i think would have happened is that the ug will lead out to protect his hand and the mp or lp that actually raised on turn will just call hoping you will riase so they can check reraise. You showed preflop strength, you raised on the flop, don't slow down! One last note why play with such a solid player? I play at partypoker and the 2/4 and 3/6 tables are extremely loose. I use poker tracker and so far have found the range of flops seen by my opponents is 45-95% which is easy to exploit if you only play 18% like I do. Great hand to discuss
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:04
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You have 12 outs to the nuts on the flop, which puts you at about 45% to hit by the river, and 3 other people wanting to see the turn. Put as many bets in there as possible! You're getting 3 to 1 on an 11 to 9 shot!

Also, if you *know* UTG has AKo, why are you playing KQs?

Lee
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Eman, 3. Dec 2003 10:15
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That was my initial read, but he could have JJ, 10 10, or 99...wasnt positive...but with 3 people in the hand i figured KQs with position is a good hand.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 10:18
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Not so good against a dominating AK.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:29
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I'd rather play a Q2s than a KQs if I knew the other guy had AKo!

Lee
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 11:13
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nah, middle or low suited connectors
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 11:18
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I think I'd most prefer to play AA myself, but I was trying to make a point. :P

Lee
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, ADAM THE EXPERT, 3. Dec 2003 11:38
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42 "BB" are you telling me that a 3-6 game, had a $252 dollar

pot, on the turn!!!! Wow!! guess I have to put some more

money on my Ultimate Bet account!!


Ok, Eman let's cover the "free card" once and for all.


Since it's been around 15 years since D.S. and M.M.

described this play in their "universally famous" book

anyone with even the slightest education, is aware of

it, so it really doesn't work that much anymore, and

since all you are saving when it does work, is a half bet,

And tough players, will three bet you, so It's best

to keep this play, to a minimum

Now, in this case, since you have about a 46 percent chance

of hitting the nuts, you are not raising for a free card, you

are raising, because the pot odds you are receiving, are

MUCH greater than the chances of winning the pot.

The fact that you didn't hit, is immaterial. Over the long

Haul, you will make good money, on this play.

If fact, the draw is so good, that if you are going to get three

or more callers, you may elect to bet for value on the turn!!


2.8 to one against hitting, 3-1 pot odds=small profit

if 4 or more callers, than you will always bet.

Remember, there is a tiny, but distinct chance that you

will win the pot right there, so this must be added to the

equation.


Also, you will be seen betting a "draw" on the turn, which

will give you additional callers in the future.


You did Ok, keep it up.


Now, can we STOP WITH THE ABBREVIATIONS.


I tht i shwd evyn wt hppns wn abvtns go 2 fr



A.T.E.

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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Eman, 3. Dec 2003 12:02
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oops...i mean $84 in the pot or 14 BB.

Should I have not even entered the pot if the UTG player came in, which I had a hunch he was holding something powerful.
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One quibble, Adam, Easy E, 3. Dec 2003 20:00
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"all you are saving when it does work, is a half bet"

Actually, your goal is to save a half-bet AND see two more streets along with it. This can lower the odds needed to catch so that they're closer to the pot odds required to draw for it.

The rest of what you said is good advice.
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Barry T, 4. Dec 2003 01:24
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Hi. This is true. Free card plays are pretty useless in middle limit games these days except against the most timid or conservative players. The bold ones three bet,and the medium ones call, then bet out on the turn when nothing scary comes.

BarryT
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Roy Cooke, 4. Dec 2003 09:31
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The free cards play still does work, but you have to utilize it in situations where the propensity for it to work is strong and the EV for the hand is there.

The play works well when the opponent you are raising is intimidated by you or is not playing on a level in which he knows the play to take the free card away.

You also need to take into account the value of the play...Does your hand have the value to make the play? Are the pot odds right? Can you make your hand and lose? What is the propensity of your opponent to have the hand you are hoping to make beat or will redraw against it? What is the propensity of your opponent to three-bet it or bet the turn?

Life is Good :-)
Roy Cooke
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Re: When the free card play doesnt work? what to do?, Phish, 5. Dec 2003 02:07
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As I read thru these threads on the free card play, I am amazed at how so many people seem to misunderstand it in subtle ways. And this is a FUNDAMENTAL of a solid basic strategy.

First of all, let's say you have the nut flush draw on the flop, the odds of making it with 2 cards to come is rought 2:1. This assumes that you will see the river, and the pot odds will almost always make it correct to go to the river. So against 2 opponents, you are essentially getting even money on every dollar you put into the pot. A raise here then is essentially free (EV close to 0). With three opponents, EV is positive.

But on the turn, odds against making a flush now is approximately 4:1. Against two or three opponents, EV is now negative for any money you put into the pot in this round of betting.

The main purpose of a free card play is not just to save half a bet. It is rather to put the money in when you have a positive or 0 EV (the flop) (against one opponent your EV would be negative but still not as negative as on the turn), so that your opponents would check to you and you won't have to put any money in on the turn when your EV is negative (or more negative as the case may be.) (Plus if you happen to hit, you've gotten more money into the pot)

So in the case stated above, since there are 4 opponents on the flop, a cap here would be mathematically correct and may have the added advantage of convincing the bettor to give you a free card on the turn.

The original poster also wrote, if it doesn't work, should I give up the hand. What? Are you nuts? The free card play not working does not invalidate the pot odds for your draw on the turn. And against 4 opponents, you don't even have a negative expectation for the money you put into the pot on the turn. Plus the money already in the pot (plus the implied odds) make remaining in the pot crucial.

I would suggest to all that they read and think deeply about what I've written above. It is basic and fundamental to a sound conceptual understanding of poker and is essential to an effective basic strategy.
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