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Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:39:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Four BLinds, Barry T, 3. Dec 2003 06:00 | ||
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| HI. In a tightish $60-$120 game, I am under the gun with QdJd. That is normally an easy fold, but I am looking at an unusual situation. Some new players have entered the game; one had posted a blind in late (cutoff) position, and another has posted a blind between the button and the small blind. So of the nine players, four have posted blinds. Since this situation is not directly covered inthe literature, I have to use some poker thinking. Should I: 1 - Fold, becuae I still have a mediocre hand in very early position? 2 - Call, because I will be entering what is already a volume pot and I have a volume type-hand. 3 - Raise because there are 3.67 bets in the pot I might be able to steal? BarryT | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Angel, 3. Dec 2003 06:16 | ||
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| You should call. You do not have a raising hand but are getting extra value for you hand due to the extra money already in the pot. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, FlopDaNutz, 3. Dec 2003 07:03 | ||
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| Folding should not even cross your mind here with these suited connectors. I can't understand how people underestimate suited connectors such as JQ. Raising may be risky but a call is in order. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, ADAM THE EXPERT, 3. Dec 2003 18:49 | ||
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| SCHUSTE MY FRIEND, TELL THE TRUTH NOW, HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY PLAYED 60-120. THIS AIN'T 3-6!!! SUITED CONNECTORS ARE YOUR FRIEND IN SMALL LIMIT, BUT YOUR DEATH WARRENT IN A GAME LIKE 60-120. IT'S ONLY THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TWO EXTRA BETS IN THE POT, THAT EVEN MAKING LIMPING IN, AN OPTION. I'M TRYING NOT TO BE INSULTING, BUT GET REAL, PLEASE A.T.E. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 22:11 | ||
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| I've never played as high as 60/120. I never claimed to have played that high. However, if limping is an option, I can't see how raising can be incorrect. You are risking one more bet to greatly increase your odds of winning the pot. Barry, what are your thoughts? Lee | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Barry T, 4. Dec 2003 00:34 | ||
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| Hi. I thought the hand had mert as both a limping hand and a raising hand. At the table, I raised. (I have a fuller explaination at the end of this thread. I agree with Adam that suited comnectors have very little value in general at $60-$120. I would normally fold QJs for any position except as a steal in late position or unless there were an unusual number of limpers (once a year maybe this happens). I think your logic (if you can limp you can raise) can be carried a bit far, but here I think there is value to it. At least, you should pretty much always consider raising if you are planning to call. (Sounds like another thread). BarryT | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:08 | ||
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| I disagree. If you call, that puts 4.67 bets in the pot with 4 others that will likely play if there is no other raise. However, you can risk one more bet and maybe get it heads up. Even if you are heads up with the weaker hand, there is a significant amount of dead money in the pot. One more bet is worth the risk in my eye. I'd raise. Lee | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, shorn, 3. Dec 2003 12:34 | ||
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| Me too. The chances that all 4 of these opponents have better hands than you is nil, so I would raise to try and limit the field. If you are lukcy, someone else might even 3-bet it for you guaranteeing heads up with a lot of dead money. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Bungus, 3. Dec 2003 21:48 | ||
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| Now I don't get that last sentence of yours. If someone re-raises you, yes you are pretty much guaranteed to see the flop heads up, but your also pretty much guaranteed to lose unless the flops hits you. Right? | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, shorn, 4. Dec 2003 05:48 | ||
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| Yes, but folding off two opponents makes it that much more likely you win the pot if you hit a Q, J or a flush draw. This in and of itself is more than worth 1/2 a bet to call the 3-bettor. | ||
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| that may be true, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 11:59 | ||
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| but if it starts a raising war by Ace-x hands or lower pairs, you may wish you had just called to see the flop, instead of what I presume would be a preflop raise-intake breath in shock-fold scenario | ||
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| Re: that may be true, shorn, 4. Dec 2003 12:37 | ||
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| Not going to get that in a "tight-ish" game. If this were a loose game or an aggressive game, then calling would be superior. However, in a tight game, I think you are better off raising and hopefull getting those A-rag hands to fold. | ||
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| Re: that may be true, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 14:17 | ||
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| you're probably correct. I just didn't know what "tightish" meant, especially given the later "tournament fish playing!" addition. As to your other response- if I hold the QJs UTG and I can anticipate that my raise will be repopped by someone who will play weaker hands because she's thinking about what I'm thinking.... AND there won't be a multi-player raising war.... AND I can preferably get heads-up or three way before the flop, then the raise looks good. I'd better have a good read on the table, though! | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Smokey27, 3. Dec 2003 09:47 | ||
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| your position stinks but if you think the game is tight raise. Two things could happen, you win four blinds, or you see a flop with a premium suited connector. Due to your position i would not raise and attmept to impersonate a big hand on the flop,unless you flop one if there are multiple callers. This is also a great opportunity to vary your play, you say the game is tight so if you do get to showdown this hand people may notice and call you more often with your premium hands. If you only get called in a couple of spots and flop a pair it may be good, if you get raised or it becomes a family pot (unlikely if the game is tight but might happen due to the extra blinds and the odds they create) you will need to have two pair or bettor. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, palman, 3. Dec 2003 10:43 | ||
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| from my experience if a player is impatient enough to not wait for the blind, your chances of driving both of those two out with a raise is very slim. They arent going to put up a blind prematurely and not at least see a flop with the hand, unless its 72o, etc just total garbage. They'll hold onto their 108s's | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Roy Cooke, 3. Dec 2003 18:39 | ||
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| As a general rule I call unless I think there is a chance to win the pot without a flop (Unlikely that this texture of situation would exist) in which case I would raise. I don't like the position, but the chance of making a hand and getting value from it is good. I'm a player in that spot :-) Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke > HI. In a tightish $60-$120 game, I am under the gun with QdJd. That is normally > an easy fold, but I am looking at an unusual situation. Some new players have > entered the game; one had posted a blind in late (cutoff) position, and another > has posted a blind between the button and the small blind. So of the nine > players, four have posted blinds. > > Since this situation is not directly covered inthe literature, I have to use > some poker thinking. Should I: > > 1 - Fold, becuae I still have a mediocre hand in very early position? > > 2 - Call, because I will be entering what is already a volume pot and I have a > volume type-hand. > > 3 - Raise because there are 3.67 bets in the pot I might be able to steal? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, ADAM THE EXPERT, 3. Dec 2003 18:45 | ||
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| WELL, THIS IS MOST INTERESTING, BECAUSE USUALLY PEOPLE WHO PLAY AT THIS LEVEL, DON'T NEED ANYON'ES HELP OR ADVICE. I'M PUTTING YOU ON, "YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO, YOU JUST WANT CONFIRMATION FROM OTHER EXPERTS" OK, WITH ALL THAT EXTRA MONEY IN THE POT, I DON'T THINK YOU STAND MUCH OF A CHANCE, OF "STEALING" IT. SOMEONE IS GOING TO CALL. AND, WITH A VERY GOOD DRAWING HAND, SUCH AS QJsuited, YOU'D PREFER EITHER ONE OPPONENT (IF YOU CAN'T HAVE ZERO!!) OR ALL OPPONENTS. SINCE THIS IS A DRAWING, RATHER THAN A POWER HAND, YOU MUST ASSUME THAT IS IT NOT THE BEST HAND OUT THERE, SO YOU WON'T WIN, UNIMPROVED. TABLE IMAGE, IS ANOTHER CONSIDERATION. DO THEY THEY YOU'RE A HARD ROCK, WHO WOULD NEVER COME OUT OF THE GATE UP FRONT, WITHOUT A GROUP ONE? HOWEVER, EVEN THOSE WHO PUT YOU ON THIS IMAGE, ARE GOING TO BE AUSTUTE ENOUGH, TO REALIZE THAT YOU REALIZE THAT THERE'S A (REALITIVELY) HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY IN THE POT, AND THUS MAY JUST BE TRYING TO STEAL. YOU MIGHT EVEN HAVE SOMEONE THREE BET, WITHOUT A REAL HAND. IN AN ATTEMPT TO RESTEAL YOUR STEAL!!! (NOTE TO SMALL LIMIT HOLD EM PLAYERS: DON'T WORRY IF YOU CAN'T FOLLOW, THIS IS FOR THE ADVANCED PLAYERS, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO BE PATRONIZING, JUST DON'T WANT YOU TO WORRY THAT YOU NEED THIS INFO, IN THE GAMES YOU PLAY) IF THIS HAPPENS, THEN YOU'LL FIND YOUR SELF HEADS UP, OUT OF POSITION, AGIANST A TOTALLY UNKNOWN HAND. NOT THE BEST SITUATION, TO BE IN, WITH QJs. SO, A MORE VIABLE PLAN, WOULD BE TO LIMP, AND TRY TO GET MAXIMUM CALLERS. THEN, IF THE BUTTON OR BLINDS RAISE, YOU MAY THEN ELECT TO THREE BET TO POSSIBLY KNOCK OUT A LIMPER WITH SOMETING LIKE KJ, OR A SMALL PAIR, WHO MAY SET-UP AGAINST YOU, WHEN YOU SPIKE A QUEEN OR JACK. OR, IF THEY ALL CALL, YOU'VE REALLY BUILT UP THE POT, GIVING YOU GREAT DRAWING ODDS, IF YOU PICK UP A GOOD OR GREAT DRAW. AND, YOU'LL KNOW, THAT YOU CAN'T EXPECT TO WIN, WITH JUST A PAIR. DRAWING HANDS=KEEP 'EM IN POWER HANDS = GET 'EM OUT AND, LIKE I SAID, EVEN IN A "TIGHTISH" GAME, ITS' EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT YOU CAN JUST TAKE THE POT, IN THIS POSITION, IT'S VERY LIKELY, THAT SOMEONE HAS A BETTER HAND, AND MAY THREE BET, THUS CUTTING YOUR DRAWING ODDS, DOWN TO ZILTCH. SOMETIMES, LIMPING IS A GOOD THING WITH QJs LIMPING IS ALMOST ALWAYS A GOOD THING. A.T.E | ||
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| why do I post this, Barry T, 4. Dec 2003 01:20 | ||
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| Hi. I will discuss the hand as I see it in a general response, but I wanted to answer the question why I posted this. There are several reasons: 1 - To learn. I think I know a lot about poker, but I am not ready to stop learning. Everyone can, and must, continuously improve their game to stay ahead. I do not beleive the world is divided into experts (who know) and students (who learn). Just peole with thoughts who can help each other. 2 - To discuss theory. I like to invite conversation about interesting hands and situations. This hand, for example, where one could make a case for any action, could make for a useful theoretical conversation. (BTW, I think a theory post that attracts 11 responses is a good thing by itself). 3 - To help others. Even if I beleiveI know the answer (not the case here), others may benefit from thinking through the problem. 4 - To get column ideas. I write a column for CardPlayer, Sometimes I post stuff here to see if there is both interest and enough material for a column. This hand might become one. 5 - To clarify my own thinking. In this case, for example, I realized after reading the responses that I probably left out a useful piece of information in the problem statement. If I told you there was a tournament at the casino, would you change your answer? BarryT | ||
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| Re: why do I post this, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 11:57 | ||
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| You don't need to justify the post, Barry, even if Adam thinks it's a silly or obvious question (it's not as obvious as it would seem IMO) > 4 - To get column ideas. I write a column for CardPlayer, Sometimes I post stuff here > to see if there is both interest and enough material for a column. This hand might become > one. then I want a cut of the commission! > If I told you there was a tournament at the casino, would you change your answer? No, unless you're telling me that THIS hand is in the tournament. Or, if the tournament that is 5 minutes from now is so juicy with potential, and the buy-in so high, that you needed to either nail this ring game for a big score (for the buy-in) or get out quick so you can go to the tournament. Otherwise, the tournament add-in comment just confuses me. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Blazman, 4. Dec 2003 06:23 | ||
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| Great advise Adam... Same strategy for 5-10 or 10-20??? | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Barry T, 4. Dec 2003 01:40 | ||
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| Hi, I appreciate all of the responses. I think in general you will not go far wrong by limping with this hand. I did not limp, though, I raised. I did this for several reasons: 1 - I always enter raising. If I am first to act pre-flop, I raise. I realize this is a stupid reason, as I should play excellent situational poker, but I find limping with a hand like this helps other players define my hand too easlily, and allows them, for example, to take the pot away from me when an ace hits. If I limp here, anyone would put me on KQs, QJs or JTs (or maybe 88 or 77). Too accurate for me. 2 - As Adam pointed out, raises under the gun in 60-120 get a lot of respect. He also noted that astute players could realize I would be raising more liberally since we can all see the extra money to be won, but I think that is worth the risk here, unless I know there are two very aggressive, astue and clever players behind me.I certainly would never criticize anyone who limped though. 3 - The circus is in town. Sorry, I meant I play at the Bellagio,and we are hosting a major tournnement right now. That means that the games are full of tournament players instead of 60-120 regulars. Tournament players playing live games typically make the error of over-applying the "gap concept " (they raise too early with mediocre hands, and fold too readily to raises with very good hands). Thus a raise would be more likely to work here than in a game full of high limit locals. (A fact I failed to state inthe original post. Sorry.) Result (meaningless, but people like to know these things): I raised, and only the poster between the button and small blind called. Heads up we saw a a good flop for me of QT7 rainbow. He checked, I bet, he folded. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, shorn, 4. Dec 2003 05:55 | ||
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| Barry- I like your play the whole way through. Sure, you got a good flop, but given the extra information about the tourny, then there is no question that it is a raise here. Too much dead money to let people limp with small pairs that could snap you off even if you hit. Also, being a tight game (and assuming that you have a relatively tight image), I don't buy the fact that there is NO chance that you could fold everyone off. If you happen to get the blinds when they have 72 and 92 respectively, they will surely muck and you have a nice pot for no work. Steve | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 12:10 | ||
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| on 4. Dec 2003 05:55 shorn wrote: > Barry- I don't > buy the fact that there is NO chance that you could fold everyone off. If you happen to > get the blinds when they have 72 and 92 respectively, they will surely muck and you have a > nice pot for no work. Do the big games play THAT tightly as a rule? shorn or barry, what in your estimation would be the minimum hand you would need, to call a preflop raiser UTG, from a) behind the raiser b) in the blinds? | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, shorn, 4. Dec 2003 12:46 | ||
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| > Do the big games play THAT tightly as a rule? shorn or barry, what in your estimation would > be the minimum hand you would need, to call a preflop raiser UTG, from > a) behind the raiser > b) in the blinds? That's a tough one. However, with that much dead money in the pot, I think it is safe to assume that you can play a weaker hand than normal (even in a tight game) if the player doing the raising is knowledgeable enough to try and steal the extra blinds. In fact, if you are next to act, then I think it is a 3-bet or fold situation because then you can take control of the hand and if a scary flop hits, you can probably take it right there if the other player is weak. In the blinds, I would probably call down to Group 6 in this spot because of the overlay that you are getting. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 12:04 | ||
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| can't argue with results.... and I totally missed the tournament in town idea... I'll blame it on fatigue. | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 11:52 | ||
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| without taking the time to check the other responses yet (so this may be repetitive) > unusual situation. Some new players have > entered the game; one had posted a blind in late (cutoff) position, and another > has posted a blind between the button and the small blind. My first reaction was, this shouldn't be allowed (posting between the blinds). But when I thought about it, I figured "what's the harm?" Anyone have comments? > Since this situation is not directly covered inthe literature, I have to use some poker thinking. Should I: > > 1 - Fold, becuae I still have a mediocre hand in very early position? Maybe- how do the other players react to extra money in the pot? Was there dead money as well? If you can expect a lot of aggressiveness, then you might think about folding. It would have to be multiple bets, in late position, where you would expect a lot of people to drop out. > > 2 - Call, because I will be entering what is already a volume pot and I have a > volume type-hand. Yes, especially since you may face raises because of the pot odds and you don't want to make it too expensive, especially up front. > 3 - Raise because there are 3.67 bets in the pot I might be able to steal? There is NO chance in hell of you stealing here. If by the most unlikely congruence of events, everyone else folded their duplicate 73off 82off 94off hands, you were betting for value technically, not stealing.... and ONE of those people is going to play sheriff, anyway. Now, let's go see what others said. | ||
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| one correction, Easy E, 4. Dec 2003 12:02 | ||
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| about the no chance to steal comment: If this is a limit tournament, I still doubt it. If it's big bet, that could be reasonable risk. Plus, if a ring game $60/120 would be tight enough to fold to your raise here, is it worth your time to play in it anyway? | ||
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| Re: Four BLinds, LJH, 27. Dec 2003 08:55 | ||
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| BARRY, YOU MUST AT LEAST CALL, BUT A RAISE WOULD BE BETTER TO CHASE THE LUMPKINS OUT. LJH | ||
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