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Server Time: 8/21/2008 1:32:41 PM PACIFIC |
 more hands, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 00:09 | ||
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| Over the next couple days, I'm going to be listing a bunch of hands here for your opinions on just how much I suck... | ||
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| Re: more hands, Blade, 3. Dec 2003 00:20 | ||
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| sweet | ||
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| Re: more hands, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 00:35 | ||
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| $1/$2 game I get 5d 5c in middle position. Under the Gun folds and I get an early position raiser. I cold call 2 bets.... ok I should have been out right here. I played this pretty bad. Then another middle position caller and the last two positions cap it. At this point I have to call 2 bets cold again which I do largely because with all the high cards out there I'd like to see the flop. I'm pretty sure nobody is holding one of my 5s. I am prepared to drop out if the flop misses me. Should I have never come this far or does all the high cards being out and having lots of people (and bets) in the pot make up for the cold calls? Flop comes up 7c, 6d, 8d... now I have a straight draw that doesn't need anything higher than a 9. There is also a potential flush draw there too though but I still have some comfortable outs (a five and 3 fours and 3 nines) and 3 more riskier outs (the 5d, 4d, 9d) for a total of 7 (or 10) Early position bets. If I am going to hit one of these outs I want as much money in the pot so I raise it and if I miss my outs I plan on betting it on the turn too to make them think I hit my straight on the flop which is much more believable if I start betting now. Late position calls and early position raises. I re-raise him (which actually put me all-in). There are 3 in now and I'm all-in for the next 2 cards which come out as 2h, 3c which didn't help me much. Pair of Kings in EP wins. Basically I aggressively played my draws and I knew I didn't have enough cash to go past the turn betting like this. This was a very scarey board for KK and I think if I wasn't short stacked a turn and river bet might have folded him... then again I might have just been throwing my cash away. Was I just being a wreckless maniac totally on tilt since I was almost out of cash? Would this play have had a better chance of working in a higher limit game? | ||
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| Re: more hands, Brian462, 3. Dec 2003 01:21 | ||
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| Obviously you should not have called the first raise, but that much you know already. I would have gotten out at the flop in an instant. While you are do have an open-ended straight draw, you are on the bad end of it. Given that you made your way to the flop with 55 it is very possible that you are up against 99 or TT, taking away 2-3 outs. The flush draw itself is enough to make me hesitant to go on. You could be facing trips and are almost definitely facing at least 1 overpair which could turn into trips. Should your 5 fall it puts four to a straight on the board (and possibly 3 to the flush, though you state that you both have the 5d and that it is in the deck). Should you make the straight on the turn the board could still pair on the river giving someone else a full house. At best you seem to be drawing to a variety of easily beaten hands. Long story short, don't call that first raise and you save yourself ALOT of money(both on this hand and over time). | ||
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| Re: more hands, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:41 | ||
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| Calling the 2 bets cold with 55 is not a good idea. After it gets back to you for 2 more, you have to call as you're easily getting odds for your set. On the flop, you're pretty much risking your last 4 bets to win what will probably be around 30 bets by the time the flop action is over. You're a dog to win and nearly all your outs are tainted, but since you don't have to pay too much for your questionable outs and the pot is huge, you can put the last of your money in. Sometimes it'll work out, most times it won't. But the huge odds makes it worth it. Lee | ||
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| Re: more hands, Piers Majestyk, 3. Dec 2003 10:47 | ||
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| Another problem I forgot to mention. You should always have enough money on the table to get you through a hand with multiple bets. I can't count the number of times I have taken a majority of a nice pot away from someone holding the nuts that went allin with a very good hand. If you don't have enough money to cover a hand fully get off the table don't just donate the last couple of bets to someone unless it is me of course:) | ||
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| Re: more hands, Boftx, 3. Dec 2003 17:37 | ||
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| on 3. Dec 2003 00:35 Palinya wrote: > $1/$2 game [ .... ] > Basically I aggressively played my draws and I knew I didn't have enough cash to go > past the turn betting like this. This was a very scarey board for KK and I think if > I wasn't short stacked a turn and river bet might have folded him... then again I > might have just been throwing my cash away. > > Was I just being a wreckless maniac totally on tilt since I was almost out of cash? > Would this play have had a better chance of working in a higher limit game? To answer you last question first, no. Not in a raised pot anyway. I have seen a flop raise work with a similar board only once and that was in a VERY tight 10/20 game with an unraised pot. (And yes, I was buffing, I took the pot down right there). I want to re-inforce Lee's comment that almost all your outs are tainted. I would go so far to say you only had 3 outs, the 3 non-diamond 4's. With all the pre-flop action it is a certainty that some idiot was there with a T, probably ATs or some such. Quite possibly the 99 was out there as well ruining your 5's (unless you got quads). Beyond that, it was *guaranteed* that no one was going to fold off on the flop to you. This is because you went all-in. They all knew that the side pot would be big enough to make up for the earlier betting even if you did win the main pot. Another way to put it, a bluff will only work if you carry it thru to the river, and you can't do that if you're all-in. In closing, even if you had the stack to carry the betting thru to the bitter end, I doubt you could have folded off everyone given the nature of the pre-flop action, at least one of them was going to call you down no matter what. Jim | ||
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| Re: more hands, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 07:01 | ||
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| I am on the button and I get dealt Ks, Qs There is a early position raise. There is one middle position call and I call. Should this be a fold? Flop comes... Jc, 6h, 7s. Early position bets. Middle position raises. I call with my overcards and backdoor flush draw. Again, should I fold? Turn comes a Qc so I have top pair with a K kicker but I'm not convinced someone doesn't have AA (although I think one of them, probably middle position is on a J) Early position checks... now I think he was the one with the J. Middle Position bets. Middle position did not raise pre-flop so I doubt he has AA or KK. He started betting when the J fell and now he bet again when the Q fell... but it might have just been because early position showed weakness to it. Then again early position could be on a check raise. Anyway, I have top pair and a decent kicker so I raise and they both call. River is a 2s. They both check to me. I bet and early position calls but middle position folds. Early position was on AQ and outkicked me. So should I fold KQs to an early position raiser? Should I call it but fold when I miss the flush draw on the flop? What if the Q came out on the flop instead of on the river. | ||
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| Re: more hands, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:52 | ||
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| Calling with KQs preflop is ok with a caller in between you if the early raiser pops it with a wide variety of hands. If you folded it, you wouldn't be losing that much. You're really hoping some people come in behind you to give you extra value on your hopeful draws. To call the raise on the flop, you're getting about 5 to 1. Ack!!!! On top of that, you can't be sure that all your overcard outs are good! A backdoor flush and straight draw is definately not worth the lack of overlay. On top of that, EP could raise again. You could be taken on a multiple bet ride here holding almost nothing but a prayer. Muck that cheese fast! On the turn, a raise is good play, but when they both call, you have to figure someone is on a queen, and unless they play QT or worse in raised pots, this is a good spot to save a bet on the river. When you flat call the flop and then raise the turn, it looks like you may have a set, or hit 2 pair. It will definately slow down an AQ from early so you won't have as much an idea where you stand on the river. It's a tough spot, but if you avoid situations like this on the flop, you won't be in as many of these on the river, so it'll be easier. Lee Lee | ||
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| Re: more hands, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 07:28 | ||
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| I get Ac, Js in middle position. Early position folds. I raise. Late position calls. Later position raises. Button folds. Small blind calls. Big Blind folds. I call and early position 1 calls. The flop is 5s, 3d, Jd and I have top pair, top kicker (I like this better than if an A would have flopped) There are 4 in the hand. Blind checks. I bet. It's called by late position 1 and raised by late position 2. It is called around. The Qh comes up on the turn and I (and the blind) check. Late position 1 bets and late position 2 raises. The big blind calls and I fold. Big blind folded on the river. Late 1 had KQ and Late 2 had pocket AA. So raising AJo in early middle position (there was only one person between me and the blinds) when I am the first one in... is this okay or should I have folded? | ||
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| Re: more hands, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 10:57 | ||
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| So UTG folded, and then you're up to act preflop? Limp at best. If you're going to play, limp and see how the action develops. If someone raises, you'll have a much better idea what you're up against. If you raise, you could get calls from a range of hands, all of which probably have you beat. Then you're not sure how to proceed if you hit an ace, or a jack, or nothing. Play after the flop was fine. Lee | ||
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| Re: more hands, Palinya, 3. Dec 2003 07:39 | ||
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| I get Kc Jc UTG. I call it and get 2 middle position calls a late position call and the blinds in. Nobody raises. Flop comes out Kh, 2d, 6s. Blinds check and I bet it. One middle position calls. Everyone else folds and we're heads up. Turn is a Qh. I bet but he raises me. I call. River is a Jd. I bet and he raises again. I call. He has a set of 2s. When he raises me on the turn should I just check and call to the river? I can't really fold here can I? If I fold I'm sending the message that I will fold top pair if someone shows a little aggression. Or should I never have been in the hand with KJs in early position anyway? | ||
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| Re: more hands, Piers Majestyk, 3. Dec 2003 10:28 | ||
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| In my opinion you are playing WAY to many mediocre hands in bad position. Calling a raise with KQ after a couple of people have called that raise is asking for trouble. Playing KJ UTG is asking for trouble. Aj off is no superstar hand either in middle position (if you raise first in and it';s capped coming back to you throw that hand in the muck and forget about those 2 bets already in the pot. Throw those small pairs away in early position when you don't know how many people are going to be in the pot (CERTAINLY don't call an UTG raiser with this hand if you are second in). People may very well disagree with me on some of these hands but I can tell you that over the last year my database shows me voluntarily entering the pot 18% of the time in 24-36 holdem and over the same time I am making nearly 4 BB per hour. If my advice is flawed I am willing to accept the results:) TIGHTEN UP. | ||
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| Re: more hands, Schuster, 3. Dec 2003 11:01 | ||
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| The game would have to be really good to play a KJs up front. If you're not sure, throw it away. You're losing very little in terms of expectation IF the game is good, but you're avoiding the losing situation if it isn't. The turn raise smells like 2 pair or a set to me. Very few players at these limts will raise the turn with less. This is a pretty safe muck. Lee | ||
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| Re: more hands, Boftx, 3. Dec 2003 11:05 | ||
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| I think you have to repect the raise on the turn and check/crying-call the river at best. The set was well hidden to say the least, but you should have thought about KQ being a reasonable hand for him to be on. Jim | ||
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