|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 12/1/2008 3:15:39 PM PACIFIC |
 One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 12:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| OK, here is one for you to think on. NL tournament, no rebuys. During the second limit of blinds (10&20) you are in the BB with Jh 8h. There are four limpers to you and you check. You start the hand with 800 in chips. Two opponents have you slightly out-chiped, two opponents have slightly less chips than you. So, there is $110 in the pot. The flop comes off 9h 7h 6h. (For the flop impaired you have a Jack-high flush and an open-ended straight flush draw.) How do you proceed on the flop, you are first to act? Let's just discuss this one step at a time, so there will be more to come. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Jordan, 2. Dec 2003 13:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| is this online or in real life? in an online tournament I'd likely bet out a decently big bet to try to get out the Ace or King high flush draws out of there, of course if this story is to explain how you got beat by a another flopped flush, then you were just unlucky :P | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 13:26 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 13:08 Jordan wrote: > is this online or in real life? It happened to be on-line, but that isn't germane, or I would have included it in the setup. > in an online tournament I'd likely bet out a > decently big bet to try to get out the Ace or King high flush draws out of there. OK, you want to bet out. I said you have 800 chips to start the hand, so you are at 780 at this point. How much do you bet in order to chase out bigger flush draws? > of course if this story is to explain how you got beat by a another flopped flush, then > you were just unlucky :P No that isn't the point of the story. Go to the back of the class for making a WAG. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, iceman5, 2. Dec 2003 13:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Well there are 9 hearts out. The only way you can get beaten if someone has at least one so that leaves 8. 2 of them give you a str8 flush so that leaves only 6 cards that beat you. You are about a 8-1 favorite so I wouldnt be afraid of a caller. I would bet about $150. If no heart comes on the turn , I go all in. Buts that just me. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 13:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 13:33 iceman5 wrote: > Well there are 9 hearts out. The only way you can get beaten if someone has at least one so > that leaves 8. 2 of them give you a str8 flush so that leaves only 6 cards that beat you. You > are about a 8-1 favorite so I wouldnt be afraid of a caller. Close, remember that there are two cards to come, so you are about a 3:1 fav against any one opponent with a single Ah, Kh or Qh. >I would bet about $150. If no > heart comes on the turn , I go all in. Buts that just me. I think that is on track. Your bet doesn't give your opponent odds to call. That is important here. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Schuster, 2. Dec 2003 13:37 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hard to say without any indication of how people play. I may give a checkraise a shot if I had a strong feeling someone would bet it. Otherwise, I'd bet about 2/3 of the pot and see how people react. If someone wants to chase for 6 outs with the Ah, then they've paid a fine price in my eye, especially since there will be a big bet on the turn if they don't get there then. It's early in the tournament, I'd rather do a little more gambling now and try to pad my stack more so I have to do less gambling later when the blinds are higher. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 13:54 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 13:37 Schuster wrote: > Hard to say without any indication of how people play. I may give a checkraise a > shot if I had a strong feeling someone would bet it. Otherwise, I'd bet about 2/3 of > the pot and see how people react. If someone wants to chase for 6 outs with the Ah, > then they've paid a fine price in my eye, especially since there will be a big bet on > the turn if they don't get there then. It's early in the tournament, I'd rather do a > little more gambling now and try to pad my stack more so I have to do less gambling > later when the blinds are higher. > > Lee Thanks for your thoughts. Paul Stine College Station,TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, GoBears, 2. Dec 2003 13:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| So, your biggest fear is the made flush on the flop that's higher than yours. That means one of the limpers holds something like AK, AQ, AT, or KQ of hearts. I wouldn't fear those too much at this point due to the lack of raises in front of you pre-flop. But, A5,A4,A3, or A2 is a distinct possibility. Enough people know that you want to see a cheap flop with those, so the lack of raising doesn't tell you if someone is holding those cards. I'd make at least a pot-sized bet at this point to drive out anyone without a heart. More likely, I'd try and bet double the pot to completely eliminate pot odds for anyone who is holding only one heart. If I take down a $110 pot with that hand, I'm happy to move on to the next one. If I get re-raised my decision to call would be based on my feelings about that player (would they risk all their chips on a flush draw?) Frankly, I think you're pot-committed after your bet if you get a caller. If they have the made flush higher than yours, you're down to a two outer (10h or 5h) if they aren't already holding them. These hands give me fits, so I'm interested to hear how yours turned out. Go Bears "In the meantime, rest well and dream of large women." | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 14:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 13:46 GoBears wrote: > So, your biggest fear is the made flush on the flop that's higher than yours. That > means one of the limpers holds something like AK, AQ, AT, or KQ of hearts. I > wouldn't fear those too much at this point due to the lack of raises in front of you > pre-flop. But, A5,A4,A3, or A2 is a distinct possibility. Enough people know that > you want to see a cheap flop with those, so the lack of raising doesn't tell you if > someone is holding those cards. Absolutely correct, to my way of thinking. It is a little too early in the tourney to know if one of your opponents is the limp with A-tiny-suited type of player. > > I'd make at least a pot-sized bet at this point to drive out anyone without a heart. > More likely, I'd try and bet double the pot to completely eliminate pot odds for > anyone who is holding only one heart. If I take down a $110 pot with that hand, I'm > happy to move on to the next one. If I get re-raised my decision to call would be > based on my feelings about that player (would they risk all their chips on a flush > draw?) Frankly, I think you're pot-committed after your bet if you get a caller. Well, I'm definitely gonna see the turn if I only get called. ;-) I think it is probably early enough in the tourney that folding to a raise or a non-helping heart on the turn isn't totally disasterous. Sure, it is a pretty good ding to your stack, but you aren't crippled at this stage. >If they have the made flush higher than yours, you're down to a two outer (10h or 5h) if > they aren't already holding them. So far, this is in line with the popular action. >These hands give me fits, so I'm interested to > hear how yours turned out. > That is the point of this; to gather some thinking about this situation. This situation comes up often and when it goes badly, it tends to do it in a spectacular way. > Go Bears > "In the meantime, rest well and dream of large women." | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, KJo, 2. Dec 2003 14:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'd bet about pot size. If someone has a lone Ah they may call it anyway, but if someone has a lone Qh or Kh they likely won't, that alone creates far less chance of being drawn out on. A big bet is gonna kick out those with non-flush/draw hands (except for a set), but any bet from anyone would likely do that with a suited board, so you just have to live with the possibility that no one will call. I wouldn't check-raise, with all those limpers it might get checked around, particularly since the board is scary. Too much risk of giving a free card. Also, a check-raise is such an aggressive move with that board that you're pretty much announcing you have a flush. Eli on 2. Dec 2003 12:59 Paul Stine wrote: > OK, here is one for you to think on. > > NL tournament, no rebuys. > > During the second limit of blinds (10&20) you are in the BB with Jh 8h. > > There are four limpers to you and you check. You start the hand with 800 in > chips. Two opponents have you slightly out-chiped, two opponents have slightly > less chips than you. > > So, there is $110 in the pot. > > The flop comes off 9h 7h 6h. (For the flop impaired you have a Jack-high flush > and an open-ended straight flush draw.) > > How do you proceed on the flop, you are first to act? > > Let's just discuss this one step at a time, so there will be more to come. > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 14:07 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 14:01 KJo wrote: > I'd bet about pot size. If someone has a lone Ah they may call it anyway, but if > someone has a lone Qh or Kh they likely won't, that alone creates far less chance of > being drawn out on. A big bet is gonna kick out those with non-flush/draw hands > (except for a set), but any bet from anyone would likely do that with a suited board, > so you just have to live with the possibility that no one will call. > > I wouldn't check-raise, with all those limpers it might get checked around, > particularly since the board is scary. Too much risk of giving a free card. Also, a > check-raise is such an aggressive move with that board that you're pretty much > announcing you have a flush. > > Eli Thanks for your thoughts, I will put them in with the others. When I get a couple more response, we will move on to the next step. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Highflyin3484k, 2. Dec 2003 14:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| you have 780 and pot is 110 I bet about 180.... about 1.5x pot, I think you have to bet at least the pot in this situation, if I got raised I would have to go with my gut on how the player plays and what my read on him is, If I think he is raising with the A h, I might push it in right then and there, make him pay to draw. Here is the dilemma though, should some one raise a bet that is 25% of their stack, Its pretty tough to put them on a draw, because essentially he will be betting over half his stack on a draw, thus committing him self to a call on the turn, no matter what falls. I find this hand very hard to throw away, unless someone moves in on the flop immediately and does all but say "NUTS". So in summary I bet out 180, and probably call a non- all in raise. Just a thought | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Paul Stine, 2. Dec 2003 14:17 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 2. Dec 2003 14:13 Highflyin3484k wrote: > you have 780 and pot is 110 I bet about 180.... about 1.5x pot, I think you have to bet at > least the pot in this situation, if I got raised I would have to go with my gut on how the > player plays and what my read on him is, If I think he is raising with the A h, I might push it > in right then and there, make him pay to draw. Here is the dilemma though, should some one > raise a bet that is 25% of their stack, Its pretty tough to put them on a draw, because > essentially he will be betting over half his stack on a draw, thus committing him self to a > call on the turn, no matter what falls. I find this hand very hard to throw away, unless > someone moves in on the flop immediately and does all but say "NUTS". > > So in summary I bet out 180, and probably call a non- all in raise. > > Just a thought Thanks for your response. When I get a couple more we will move to the next part of the disscussion. Paul Stine College Station,TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Jordan, 2. Dec 2003 15:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'd prolly do about the same thing. Bet out about 1.5x the pot in the extreme case somebody has flopped a higher flush and then raises all-in. I might have to lay down my hand at this point. I wouldn't want to....but it might be the best move. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Venetian, 2. Dec 2003 15:34 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| All right, first post, but I had to get in on this one as a possible dissenting voice. Disclaimer: Most of the tournaments I play are low buy-in with some very weird play early on. I would check-call the flop assuming no one bets big (more than the pot). My reasoning here is this: 1. I don't think you're going to push good hands (or even good draws)out automatically. It's early...weak players will call anything with a strong draw. 2. If someone else bet in this spot, I wouldn't give them credit for the flush. So you're likely to get called by a wide variety of hands, if not raised. What do you do if you're raised? It's all-in or fold time and you're likely screwed. I'd rather wait till the turn or river to make that decision. 3. Small bet poker is better if you're a good player. It's not the end of the world here if you forfeit T20 and cost yourself a big pot. If you're better than the other players, your time will come. 4. There's space on the turn for a check-raise or bet if it's friendly, i.e., no fourth suited card. If you don't like what you see here, you escape with half your stack and live to fight another day. I know this probably won't be popular, but I've played way too many low buy-in tournaments where I've played the "professional way" and been hammered by a hand I couldn't possibly have expected to see. I think you're better off seeing what the turn (and/or river) brings and being cautious at this point. To me, this is a classic win a little/lose a lot hand. I'd rather wait for a better opportunity. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, Wren, 2. Dec 2003 15:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think I'd be inclined to come out & bet about the size of the pot. In the early stages of a tournament, there are often a lot of turkeys who will pay off a made hand like this, calling big bets without odds holding just a lone high heart, or top pair. Plus, betting out here might cause some players to think I actually DON'T have a flush, since a lot of players will slowplay a made hand in this situation. Depending on the opposition, a case can be made for checking here, seeing what action develops, and then checkraising, or coming out firing on a later street. I'd probably do this if my table contained a couple maniacs who'd be happy to bluff their money off to me. Of course, there is the worry about already being beat by a higher flush, but the action should (hopefully) reveal this, allowing me to escape with a decent amount of chips left. on 2. Dec 2003 12:59 Paul Stine wrote: > OK, here is one for you to think on. > > NL tournament, no rebuys. > > During the second limit of blinds (10&20) you are in the BB with Jh 8h. > > There are four limpers to you and you check. You start the hand with 800 in > chips. Two opponents have you slightly out-chiped, two opponents have slightly > less chips than you. > > So, there is $110 in the pot. > > The flop comes off 9h 7h 6h. (For the flop impaired you have a Jack-high flush > and an open-ended straight flush draw.) > > How do you proceed on the flop, you are first to act? > > Let's just discuss this one step at a time, so there will be more to come. > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, palman, 2. Dec 2003 17:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You don't check-raise here... because that gives away too much about your hand. Betting out and betting aggressively disguises your hand... people with a set or two pair or even top pair might just put you on an A or a K. If someone else flopped the flush well you were doomed either way. I'd bet the pot, and if someone calls just push in the turn. Online many people will call with the A here, so its well worth it.... and you may get trips to call an all in here as well. Anything else that someone won't call an all in with but would call 200-300 chips can only hurt you. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: One to chew on, tommyhawk, 5. Dec 2003 04:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| nice one paul it does happen often even without the str8 flush chances. I would bet more then the pot maybe double. Odd ,yes maybe..but with four limpers if the next guy calls the others would get ( not really but how many times do you see this happen ) the odds to call and i still don't know where i am at and affraid of another flush card or the board pairs. I would be hapy to take one on heads up but not four of them ( trips and flush draws ) sure you would like a big pot with these but i'll take it right now. It's the way i would propably play it what comes first to mind and what i would do at the table right there and then. cheers. tom. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|