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Server Time: 12/1/2008 3:50:17 PM PACIFIC |
 Did I play these hand correctly?, iceman5, 2. Dec 2003 12:48 | ||
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| I was playing $2/$4 today and getting rivered to death. After these 2 hands which occurred within a few hands of each other, the 2 different people who beat me started calling me a fish and talking about how bad I play. Tell me what you think. Hand #1...I limp from Mp with KQ. The button raises. Both blinds fold so we are heads up. The flop is KQ7 rainbow. I bet and he calls. I didnt get raised so I figure him for TT or JJ. If he had AA, KK, QQ, AK, or AQ he wouldve raised. The turn is a J making the board KQ7J. Now Im a little worried but I bet anyway not wanting to induce a bluff. He calls. The river is an ace. The board reads KQ7JA. Now I believe Im in trouble and check. He bets and I call. He turns over TT for the str8. Now the way I see it, HE misplayed the hand not me. With a K and Q on the flop he has to figure I have one of them and shouldve folded. Anyone agree? I couldve check raised the flop but thats debateable and I dont think he wouldve folded anyway. Hand #2...I am in MP and limp behind 2 other limpers with 98 spades. There is another LP limper and the BB checks so the flop is 5 way. The flop is Ts 7s 4d. I have an open ended str8 flush. First limper checks, second one bets. I raise and everyone else folds. The better calls. The turn is the Jh giving me the str8. He checks, I bet, he raises, I reraise, he caps. Ok, he has a set, but Im still ahead and feeling good. The river is another J. He bets, I call and he had 77 for the boat. Would anyone play this any differently? These 2 hands were large pots and turned a good day into a bad one. One guy said I should stop playing junk like KQ. If i cant open limp from MP with KQ then I guess I AM a fish. A few minutes later the same guy played A3 and beat my AT when he flopped a 3 and the turn was an ace. I guess that tells me who the real fish is, but its still eating at me. Can someone cheer me up please? | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, NewSchool, 2. Dec 2003 13:19 | ||
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| Both situations describe the exact reason why I never ever play LIMIT hold 'em. People chase, and better yet, people wont fold. | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Schuster, 2. Dec 2003 13:33 | ||
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| As far as the first hand goes, opening for a raise from MP with KQo is not a bad idea if there is a chance you will take the blinds. Your hand is medium strength, why let lessor hands in the pot cheap? Once you limp, I probably would have checkraised the flop. It's almost a guarantee that he bets, and if you do checkraise and he makes it 3 bets, then you can decide where you stand. If he doesn't make it 3, then you're probably in the lead and you've gotten an extra bet out of him. It's unfortunate that he backdoored the straight, but such is poker. In the second hand, I really do not like confronting the field with a double bet. You have a huge draw, you want as many customers as possible. If you were heads up from the beginning, then you could raise for value, but why shut out 3 players who might be willing to put in a single bet but not a double bet? On the turn and river, you played fine, but again, that's just the way it goes sometimes. Lee | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, iceman5, 2. Dec 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Lee, I agree with you about not raising the flop on the 2nd hand in order to keep more poeple in, but the table was very loose and I figured Id get a caller or 2 anyway. I was wrong obviously. I was playing 2 tables and there were more bad players than Ive seen in a while. Unfortunatley, I still lost due to these and a couple other rivered hands. | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Piers Majestyk, 2. Dec 2003 13:49 | ||
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| I just don't play KQ off any more from early or middle position. If you can see the flop in late position with a few limpers or perhaps try to steal the blinds if in the cutoff or button and noone has entered the pot. I don't think you're losing anything by mucking this hand preflop from early position and in truth are probably saving yourself money in the long run. If I would have played this hand I would have check raised the flop and bet the turn and then check called the river. On your second hand I agree with Lee, you should not have raised the flop as you want all of those folks to call in case you hit your hand. Now if you where last to act and they all had called a bet then fire in a raise but in my opinion you made a very bad error with your raise. These are the kind of hands that you really have to play properly to maximize your wins and the kind of errors that keep average players from ever showing consistant earnings. Hope that is not to blunt but you really have to play post flop much better if you want to beat limit hold'em. Good luck (and fold that KQ off:). | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Boftx, 2. Dec 2003 14:23 | ||
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| I think you played hand 2 just fine. If anything, the guy with the set had no business raising the turn. But he *did* have good pot odds for calling your turn bet with 10 outs to the boat after your (correct) bet. I think he was blind to the str8 possibility and thought you were on only a flush draw with the free-card play making his set top dog. The boat was an added bonus for him. Heck, unless you showed your cards intentionally he probably never knew you had a str8. At most you gave up 1 big bet by raising the flop. Anyone with a drawing hand or top pair would have called the raise, and most would have folded anyway to just the single bet without a draw or a pair. That flop pretty well missed everyone except you and the set. Your crying call at the river was pretty much a give considering the pair on the board and your read of a set on the turn. Jim | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, iceman5, 2. Dec 2003 14:59 | ||
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| I guess whats bugging me is not so much the hands, but that the guys were serious when they said I was a fish. One of them said he has notes on me and that I "play poorly". I find that hard to believe. Im by no means a pro but I have been playing for a while now and play every day. I agree and understand most posts by the experts here. I make mistakes sometimes (like raising on hand #2) but feel I have a good understanding of the game and these comments got to me. Especially since Im in a fairly long losing streak (actually Im only breaking even for several weeks now, but it feels like losing after the success Ive had). I have notes on the one guy who called me a fish. Several days ago we were heads up with a flop of Q32. I had QQ. I bet, he raised, I reraised, he capped. To make a long story short..he had AJ. So I guess I should consider the source before worrying about it. A couple weeks ago I started losing and lost my confidence so I went back to $.50/$1 and averaged 6.4BB/hr over about 60 hours. I know that s not alot and those games are easy to beat, but I dont know any fish who can beat a game for 6.4BB. Of course as soon as I went back to $2/$4...I started only breaking even again....... | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Raodwarior, 3. Dec 2003 09:50 | ||
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| Ice, blow them off my friend. I like to change it up at the table from time to time and can play some really odd hands. Had a fellow last week at a B&M that I played 72o with a raise to the river, got lucky and drew out (which was not the idea but hey what the heck free cash) this guy goes off how I'm a loser a fish yada yada. So as the night whet on and I beat him with AA, KK, AK etc, he just kept thinking fish and kept coming after me. So I took his chips and put them in front of me in a short time. Taking their money is the best revenge, let them say what they will. Let them think you are a fish, I have always found it an advantage to be looked at as a loose fish and very profitable as well. Good luck | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, mfs, 2. Dec 2003 14:55 | ||
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| Hand number one you played fine I probably would have raised if I was the first one in. I think your opponent should have mucked his hand on the flop or raised if he thought you might be betting with nothing or second or third pair. Regarding playing kq, I think you muck this hand from EP only if you are playing in an aggressive game. If you are playing in a typical low limit game or loose passive game I think kq goes from being a dominated hand to a fairly strong hand. I say this because in low limit people tend to play any k suited and any q suited quite often, not to mention some of the other crap hands they will come in with. | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Wren, 2. Dec 2003 15:20 | ||
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| Here are my thoughts: Hand #1 - I think you played this fine until the river, and your river play might have been fine too, depending on the player, who you didn't provide a description of (is he loose/tight? passive/aggressive? straightforward/tricky?) I think you have to pay off here if the player is known to be tricky and/or fairly fishy (he could be holding something like A-small, KJ, QJ, all of which you can beat and he might opt to bet on the river if he is fishy). However, if he's the type of player who doesn't bet without a really strong hand, a check/fold is probably in order. Hand #2 - I think your call preflop is fine, but I don't like your raise on the flop. You're playing for a big hand here, and you want more customers in to pay you off if you hit. By raising here, you charge everyone except the bettor 2 bets, so it's likely that most people are going to drop. It would be different if you were in late position with a few players in between you and the better. In this case, you could go ahead and raise for value. On the flipside, raising here disguises your hand, and you might get more action from the initial bettor if you hit. Furthermore, you *might* get someone with a higher flush draw to drop here as well. However, I still think that calling here is a better move than raising. IMO you played the rest of the hand just fine. And in general - don't let comments from other players affect your play (unless, of course, they provide you with reliable information that you can use against them!) Furthermore, as a general rule, the players who comment & "educate" the table the most are usually quite beatable, so just smile, play solid poker, and you should do just fine :O) on 2. Dec 2003 12:48 iceman5 wrote: > I was playing $2/$4 today and getting rivered to death. After these 2 hands > which occurred within a few hands of each other, the 2 different people who beat > me started calling me a fish and talking about how bad I play. Tell me what you > think. > Hand #1...I limp from Mp with KQ. The button raises. Both blinds fold so we > are heads up. The flop is KQ7 rainbow. I bet and he calls. I didnt get raised > so I figure him for TT or JJ. If he had AA, KK, QQ, AK, or AQ he wouldve > raised. The turn is a J making the board KQ7J. Now Im a little worried but I > bet anyway not wanting to induce a bluff. He calls. The river is an ace. The > board reads KQ7JA. Now I believe Im in trouble and check. He bets and I call. > He turns over TT for the str8. Now the way I see it, HE misplayed the hand not > me. With a K and Q on the flop he has to figure I have one of them and shouldve > folded. Anyone agree? I couldve check raised the flop but thats debateable and > I dont think he wouldve folded anyway. > Hand #2...I am in MP and limp behind 2 other limpers with 98 spades. There is > another LP limper and the BB checks so the flop is 5 way. The flop is Ts 7s 4d. > I have an open ended str8 flush. First limper checks, second one bets. I > raise and everyone else folds. The better calls. The turn is the Jh giving me > the str8. He checks, I bet, he raises, I reraise, he caps. Ok, he has a set, > but Im still ahead and feeling good. The river is another J. He bets, I call > and he had 77 for the boat. Would anyone play this any differently? These 2 > hands were large pots and turned a good day into a bad one. > One guy said I should stop playing junk like KQ. If i cant open limp from MP > with KQ then I guess I AM a fish. A few minutes later the same guy played A3 > and beat my AT when he flopped a 3 and the turn was an ace. I guess that tells > me who the real fish is, but its still eating at me. Can someone cheer me up > please? | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, Jack Maiden, 2. Dec 2003 15:25 | ||
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| > One guy said I should stop playing junk like KQ. If i cant open limp from MP > with KQ then I guess I AM a fish. A few minutes later the same guy played A3 > and beat my AT when he flopped a 3 and the turn was an ace. I guess that tells > me who the real fish is, but its still eating at me. Can someone cheer me up > please? I have a similiar situation in response to this. I raise preflop in LP with KQs, flop comes KQ3. Turn is a brick, river is an A. I had the best of it until the river when smartguy turns over A3! love that! | ||
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| Re: Did I play these hand correctly?, KevinK, 3. Dec 2003 02:51 | ||
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| Nothing wrong with your play at all. He said K Q is a junk hand? I'd like him to say that to a pro. Then again, the pro would probably smile, agree with him, and bust him with K Q. We've all been in the same bad luck boat before, getting seasick for months at a time, but every dog has its day. As far as the educators go, educators can be a bit arrogant, eventually getting stubborn and chasing just to try to show everyone they know something. Bust them a few times and see if they tilt or not. The fish comment is just plain cruel to give to anyone whether it be true or not. Fish must be poker's F word because I've seen people get more offended being called a fish than a fucker(fish should be displayed **** in the chat window from here on in). Hope this message was fun enough to brighten your day. Take care. | ||
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