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Server Time: 11/20/2008 3:01:35 PM PACIFIC |
 AJs...a bad beat??, backtoanalog, 2. Dec 2003 08:38 | ||
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| 3/6 at a midwestern B&M. After a few hours, I saw maybe ten flops stayed for maybe half and won 2 or 3. I am a very tight player. Anyway, after the first few hours the table gets down to 7 players. It was interesting. To my left a couple college kids who obviously had done a little homework on the starting hands and used some of the poker literature lingo but weren't that good cause they'd start with Axo in EP and stay around with 2cd pair. Next seat is a middleaged guy who probably had been playing for years and knows some moves but payed to see EVERY flop. Next seat a complete moron giving away money. Next seat a fairly solid tight aggressive young player who had all the tells of a good player--watching reactions before looking at his cards, making moves to steal, check raised a few times. His one fault was he didn't have me read as a solid player, too. He thought he was the only one at the table. lastly to my right was a woman who was farily tight before the flop but totally loose after. She was dragging left and right. My ONLY losses at showdown were to her, and she got em all at the river. Twice, i'm betting or raising top pair (either A or K), she's staying in with pocket x's and sets them on the river to beat me. Another time she's calling me with 2cd pair and hits her other hole card on the river to beat me with two pair. So I'm on SB with AJc. I'm almost exactly even for the night after 3-4 hours. One of the college kids UTG folds, the middleaged loose guy calls of course, the tightagressive kid calls, the lady to my right calls, I'm loving this so I raise, BB folds and the others call back around. Flop As 8s Xc. Now the hand before I just caught the tight/agressive kid trying to buy a pot with nothing, I called him with 2cd pair and won. If I check/raised here, I knew the middleaged guy would check it and the kid would bet it. This was my first opportunity to check raise and I couldn't wait to see the expression on the kid's when he got nailed. That's exactly what happened, loose middleaged guy checked, the kid called, the lady called, I raise, middleaged guy calls and the rest called. That got the attention of the kid real quick. He didn't take his eyes off me after that and I laughed on the inside. I got his respect real quick in those two hands. Turn is Jd. Now i've got top two pair. I'm not too worried about the flush draw on the flop because if the kid had it he would have reraised my check raise. Honestly, I didn't give much thought to the lady (my nemesis of the evening) to my right. In the back of my mind I just figured she had another 2cd pair. I bet into it, middle aged guy calls, the kid folds, and the lady calls. I'll admit I didn't do enough "what could they have" analysis here. This was a loose table and for some reason I wasn't worried about this one. I think i briefly figured the middleaged guy may have an ace and at best an 8 or the x too. The lady I still put on nothing. But again, I was pretty excited on the inside at this point, and by reading the players I wasn't too worried about it. River comes Ks. Immediately, the first thing to come to my mind is AK beats me. I bet into it, the loose guy calls, and *gasp* the lady raises. My heart sinks and I tell the whole table about it. I hang my head. She's a calling station that only raises if she's got something. I call her raise and so does the other guy. I'm expecting to see AK, when she throws down Q 10 off. Dealer calls it, straight to the ace. Oh man am I PISSED OFF now, the fourth time she rivered me with dogsh*t cards. In a nanosecond I show my cards, stand up and grab my stack, shake my head and say "for chrissakes" and walk away. I mean I was walking away in less than two seconds after she showed. I didn't even bother to see what the guy had. I saw her drag the pot, though. My behavior was not one of my finer moments. Normally I would say nice hand with a smirk and keep playing. But not after the FOURTH time rivered me with NO BUSINESS being in the pot. I was so steamed I had to walk out and call it a night. Ok maybe she was getting odds after the J came on the turn but she had no business calling on the flop, and calling my raise again. Or am I wrong? Did I misplay it? I don't think so because an an idiot like that will call with any paint, even if its dominated or missed comletely. The only thing I am alarmed by is the fact that I didn't see the straight possibility after the J on the turn. Spotting straights is one of my weaknesses, and again, I was excited and generally not worried about my lead in this hand, by my reads on the players. But be honest, would you have spotted that possibility after the turn while jamming it and getting called? Thoughts, suggestions, comments, criticisms? Thanks in advance. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, backtoanalog, 2. Dec 2003 08:46 | ||
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| Correction in the above, River was Kc, not Ks. And I forgot to mention the player to the left of the middle aged guy folded before the flop. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Blade, 2. Dec 2003 08:57 | ||
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| I think you know the problem as far as your reaction to get out drawn. I'm not even sure if it is a bad beat. Your wrong about her having no business in that pot. She has your business in that pot. What I mean is her and players like her are where your profits come from. You can't think everything is right with the world as she happily calls down second pair or some busted draw and pays you off and then complain when she hits. I don't know about you but poker would pretty much suck for me if everyone played correctly..or even close to it for that matter. You may have wanted to consider folding to her raise as you knew she wouldn't raise unless you were beat but its tough to fold with that pot. As far as seeing the draw, I have been guilty of this before as well. I now make a point of at every round thinking about what possible hands are out there, what is the nuts and what type of hands my opponent could have based on their play. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, shorn, 2. Dec 2003 09:00 | ||
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| I agree she made a loose call on the flop, but remember she was already in for 1 bet by the time you checkraised. And once the J comes, she has a double gutter (K and 9), so the odds were definitely there for her to play it. No question it was a bad beat. But, I would have probably bet out for fear of a flush draw and also hoping that the tight aggressive kid would raise so that others would muck. The only time I would CR that flop was if I was sure that the only 1 who would bet was the lady so that I could lock everyone else out. Anyway, it goes that way some times. Keep playing the same. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Jordan, 2. Dec 2003 09:09 | ||
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| it was a bad beat and not awful that you didn't see the inside straight....you had a good hand and probably got too excited about your hand and your play to see an inside straight coming.....on the river it's a tough call but you were pretty sure you were beat and there was another person in the hand making this a tough decision, you don't always want to lay down a hand on the river to a raise, but in this case it might have been the best action | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Jordan, 2. Dec 2003 09:11 | ||
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| i didn't even see the double gutter myself after reading your post, see we all don't see things coming :) | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Schuster, 2. Dec 2003 09:53 | ||
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| You need to be much less emotional when you play. You shouldn't be checkraising someone because it feels good. You shouldn't blow your top over a bad beat. Good luck in future hands backtoanalog. Lee | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, mfs, 2. Dec 2003 10:19 | ||
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| I didn't spot the double gut shot initially so I thought the value bet on the end was good. Typically if a card on the end fills an open ended straight draw from the flop I will check it down. How about in this situation were the lady turned a double gut shot. I still think I would bet considering the long odds of this happening(going runner runner for the straight). What if the double gut shot was on the flop, would you check now on the end? | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Quark, 2. Dec 2003 12:16 | ||
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| on 2. Dec 2003 10:19 mfs wrote: > What if the double gut shot was on the flop, would you check now on the > end? > Yes, on the end. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Schuster, 2. Dec 2003 12:33 | ||
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| If you check 2 pair down any time an open ended straight draw gets there, you're missing a lot of bets on the river. Lee | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, backtoanalog, 2. Dec 2003 10:40 | ||
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| Lee, you're absolutely right, but, it wasn't the one bad beat that made me leave the table. I already sat through three of them with her and handled it professionally. It was this one, the fourth one from her that I think would test anyone's patience. I think I made the correct decision by leaving. Ya, I could've been cooler about it. I know losing with two pair is certainly not the worst of bad beats, I guess I posted here more in search of comments on the check/raise play. You see, I did consider betting into it, but when I made a move to my chips (while still considering the options) the tight/agressive kid went to his chips too and I knew he'd bet it, so I checked. My mindset was "he's the one to beat." I know, the check raise is most powerful to eliminate players to my left by making it two to go. But Lee Jones says something like even if the players stay in "nevertheless, you get more chips in the pot when you're in the lead." And as unlikely as it is, the checkraise may have gotten the tightagressive player out with AK or AQ. I doubt he would've mucked those, but hey you never know. Also, I'll admit trying to "show up" the only other solid player at the table may be a sign of my immaturity but I was honestly thinking about my table image. You gotta admit, a move like that tells people you ain't here to mess around and after catching him on the hand before, if i won this pot he would've either played more passive against me or even possibly start to go on tilt a little bit. | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, backtoanalog, 2. Dec 2003 10:57 | ||
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| By the way, Blade, good points. I appreciate it. That's why I like posting/reading here...getting a detatched, cool headed, and blunt opinion. On another note, I wonder what Adam will have to say about this... | ||
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| Re: AJs...a bad beat??, Wren, 2. Dec 2003 10:44 | ||
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| A few thoughts; (1) Many players at low limits will routinely "take one off" like the lady did there, even though, as you put it, they have no business being in. Loose, passive, predictable calling stations. Cherish these players - be friendly to them, chat them up. They are the ones who pay us off more than any other bad player prototype. (2) As Schuster already pointed out, you need to take your emotions out of the game. Checkraise when it is correct to, not because it'll make you feel good and/or show some young hotshot who's boss. (3) When you KNOW you are beat, save that extra bet and fold. This is one of the things that's so great about players like lady-on-your-right - they don't screw around. They raise with the nuts, and that's about it. (4) Finally, kudos for paying close attention to your opponents & knowing their styles. A good chunk of profit from the game comes from playing the players, not just your cards. But you must have the confidence to use this knowledge and make non-standard moves against the right opponents (for eg, folding to lady's raise on the river). Just some food for thought. on 2. Dec 2003 08:38 backtoanalog wrote: > 3/6 at a midwestern B&M. After a few hours, I saw maybe ten flops stayed for > maybe half and won 2 or 3. I am a very tight player. Anyway, after the first > few hours the table gets down to 7 players. It was interesting. To my left a > couple college kids who obviously had done a little homework on the starting > hands and used some of the poker literature lingo but weren't that good cause > they'd start with Axo in EP and stay around with 2cd pair. Next seat is a > middleaged guy who probably had been playing for years and knows some moves but > payed to see EVERY flop. Next seat a complete moron giving away money. Next > seat a fairly solid tight aggressive young player who had all the tells of a > good player--watching reactions before looking at his cards, making moves to > steal, check raised a few times. His one fault was he didn't have me read as a > solid player, too. He thought he was the only one at the table. lastly to my > right was a woman who was farily tight before the flop but totally loose after. > She was dragging left and right. My ONLY losses at showdown were to her, and > she got em all at the river. Twice, i'm betting or raising top pair (either A > or K), she's staying in with pocket x's and sets them on the river to beat me. > Another time she's calling me with 2cd pair and hits her other hole card on the > river to beat me with two pair. > > So I'm on SB with AJc. I'm almost exactly even for the night after 3-4 hours. > One of the college kids UTG folds, the middleaged loose guy calls of course, the > tightagressive kid calls, the lady to my right calls, I'm loving this so I > raise, BB folds and the others call back around. Flop As 8s Xc. > > Now the hand before I just caught the tight/agressive kid trying to buy a pot > with nothing, I called him with 2cd pair and won. If I check/raised here, I > knew the middleaged guy would check it and the kid would bet it. This was my > first opportunity to check raise and I couldn't wait to see the expression on > the kid's when he got nailed. That's exactly what happened, loose middleaged > guy checked, the kid called, the lady called, I raise, middleaged guy calls and > the rest called. That got the attention of the kid real quick. He didn't take > his eyes off me after that and I laughed on the inside. I got his respect real > quick in those two hands. > > Turn is Jd. Now i've got top two pair. I'm not too worried about the flush > draw on the flop because if the kid had it he would have reraised my check > raise. Honestly, I didn't give much thought to the lady (my nemesis of the > evening) to my right. In the back of my mind > I just figured she had another 2cd pair. I bet into it, middle aged guy calls, > the kid folds, and the lady calls. I'll admit I didn't do enough "what could > they have" analysis here. This was a loose table and for some reason I wasn't > worried about this one. I think i briefly figured the middleaged guy may have > an ace and at best an 8 or the x too. The lady I still put on nothing. But > again, I was pretty excited on the inside at this point, and by reading the > players I wasn't too worried about it. > > River comes Ks. Immediately, the first thing to come to my mind is AK beats > me. I bet into it, the loose guy calls, and *gasp* the lady raises. My heart > sinks and I tell the whole table about it. I hang my head. She's a calling > station that only raises if she's got something. I call her raise and so does > the other guy. I'm expecting to see AK, when she throws down Q 10 off. Dealer > calls it, straight to the ace. Oh man am I PISSED OFF now, the fourth time she > rivered me with dogsh*t cards. In a nanosecond I show my cards, stand up and > grab my stack, shake my head and say "for chrissakes" and walk away. I mean I > was walking away in less than two seconds after she showed. I didn't even bother > to see what the guy had. I saw her drag the pot, though. > > My behavior was not one of my finer moments. Normally I would say nice hand > with a smirk and keep playing. But not after the FOURTH time rivered me with NO > BUSINESS being in the pot. I was so steamed I had to walk out and call it a > night. Ok maybe she was getting odds after the J came on the turn but she had no > business calling on the flop, and calling my raise again. Or am I wrong? Did I > misplay it? I don't think so because an an idiot like that will call with any > paint, even if its dominated or missed comletely. > > The only thing I am alarmed by is the fact that I didn't see the straight > possibility after the J on the turn. Spotting straights is one of my > weaknesses, and again, I was excited and generally not worried about my lead in > this hand, by my reads on the players. But be honest, would you have spotted > that possibility after the turn while jamming it and getting called? > > Thoughts, suggestions, comments, criticisms? Thanks in advance. | ||
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