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Server Time: 11/20/2008 3:12:46 PM PACIFIC |
 Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Keffo, 2. Dec 2003 01:52 | ||
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| I am relatively new to poker. I have found that there is some kind of consensus saying that a "good" players shuld be able to win about 1 to 1.5 big bets per hour. I have some questions about this. 1) Where does it come from? Who "coined" it, and what is the underlining reasoning? 2) What does "good" mean in this context? Better than average? Pro? Skilled amateur? 3) Since the win rate is a function of time (BB/hour), shouldnt this imply that the win rate for online games should be higher, given that the game is much faster and more hands are dealt per time unit? And what is the ratio? I have never played B&M games. How many hands are typically dealt in B&M games and online games respectively? Any other comments/reflections are welcome. // Regards, Keffo | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), ADAM THE EXPERT, 2. Dec 2003 06:04 | ||
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| THE WHOLE NOTION, OF 1-1.5 BIG BETS PER HOUR, WAS "COINED" BY MASON MALMUTH AND DAVID SKLANSKY, IN A CARD PLAYER ARTICLE, CIRCA 1990 OR 91 SAY SOMETHING OFTEN ENOUGH, AND IT BECOMES TRUE. VERY OBSERVENT OF YOU, TO REALIZE THAT ONLINE PLAY, IS MUCH DIFFERENT. REMEMBER, MASON AND DAVID LIVE IN LAS VEGAS, AND AS SUCH, MAY HAVE A DISTORTED SENSE, OF HOW GAMES PLAY, ELSEWHERE VEGAS, IS ONLY GOOD, ON WEEKENDS, EXCEPT DURING THE SUMMER. THE GAMES ARE PACKED FULL OF "LOCALS" WAITING AROUND, HOPING FOR A "LIVE ONE" TO SHOW UP. I GUESS THESE GUYS, NEVER SAW A 20-40 GAME, IN LOS ANGLES, WITH SEVEN PLAYERS IN EVERY POT. HA HA TEE HEE, OF COURSE THE "ONE BIG BET" IS AN UTTER FALLICY!!! THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT ARE THE ODDS, THAT A WINNING PLAYER, JUST HAPPENS TO WIN, EXACTLY ONE BIG BET? WHY NOT .92 OR 1.13 BIG BETS PER HOUR.? AS ADAM THE EXPERT HAS SAID, TODAY, WE TRADE EXPEDIENCE AND CONVEINANCE, FOR ACCURACY. A TRUELY GIFTED PLAYER, WILL MAKE MUCH MORE, THAN THAT. THE FIGURE ALSO DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT, THE DIFFERENT GAMES, THEIR SPEEDS, AND THE RELATIVE SKILL LEVEL. ALSO, A PLAYER PLAYING AT A CLUB WITH SLOW DEALERS, WON'T MAKE NEARLY AS MUCH, AS AT ONE WITH FAST DEALERS. STUD, WITH IT'S EXTRA BETTING ROUND, AND GREATER SKILL, PRODUCES A LARGER FIGURE, IF THE PLAYER IS EXPERT, AND SELECTS GOOD GAMES ONLY REMEMBER, THE WHOLE CONCEPT, STARTED IN A MAGAZINE ARTICLE. THEY WERE JUST TRYING TO CONVEY AN APPROXIMATION, OF WHAT A WINNING PLAYER CAN EXPECT, WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE SPACE LIMITATIONS, OF THE ARTICLE. THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO SET A FIGURE IN STONE, BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. IT IS AN APPROXIMATION, NOTHING MORE. AFTER 175 SESSIONS OF 10-20 OMAHA, ONLINE, ADAM THE EXPERT HAS A WIN RATE OF OVER 4.9 BIG BETS PER HOUR. THIS IS MUCH BETTER, THAN MY 2.65 BIG BETS THAT I HAVE AVERAGED OVER THE LAST 13 YEARS, OF PLAYING THIS GAME/LIMIT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO, TO GET RICH THROUGH INTERNET POKER, IS DO IT!! YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A GREAT PLAYER, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE DECENT, UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCES, BE WELL-FINANCED, AND A GOOD MANAGER. A.T.E | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Piers Majestyk, 4. Dec 2003 11:40 | ||
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| I averaged right at 1.5 BB per hour playing 2040 and 3060 at the Mirage, Horseshoe and Bellagio for nearly a year of full time playing so for me the S & M estimate was pretty accurate. I have since played mainly on line for various reasons and my Big Bets per hour hovers right around 4 per hour over the last 2 years. I always play 3 to 4 tables at once online between 24 and 510 and I am making more per hour at these limits on line per hour than I was playing in the B&M rooms. I miss the interaction of playing live but for me the monetary advantages of online play much more than make up for this at a less risk factor. If you are a good player the internet games are the way to go in my opinion although flirting with the cocktail waitresses is also a bonus that I sometime miss:) If you can't make 2 BB per hour in online games then you have some serious leaks in my opinion. If you are making more than 1.5 BB per hour playing B&M you are one of the finer limit players around. | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Stl10202, 6. Dec 2003 12:57 | ||
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| Okay, I am up at college and do not have access to all of my poker books to look this up, so I ask, how is the big bet per hour found? | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Candide, 8. Dec 2003 09:26 | ||
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| Simple, if you are playing 2-4, then the BB is 4. So if you play for 3 hours, and are up 24$, then your BB/hour is 2...that is 24$ / 3 hours for 8$/hour, then 8$/4$ for 2BB per hour. | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Stl10202, 8. Dec 2003 16:11 | ||
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| ok thanks Candide. However, I play mostly no limit. So would this calculation be different since the big bet is essentially no limit, or would it be the big blind. For example, I have been playing online since late October, logging in 31 hours played at NL $25 (.25/.50) and total profit of $380.75. How would I figure my big bet? I realize you need more than 31 hours but I would still like to know the calculation for doing it. Thanks a lot for your input. | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Candide, 9. Dec 2003 07:11 | ||
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| I don't play much NL, so I am not sure. I usualy see it refered to as "I cashed out with 3x the buy in" or some such. I don't think BB/hour compares well to NL. If you wanted to do it on the same scale, then use 2x the big blind (note BB/hour is NOT big blind/hour, but big bet I guess), but I think this is an apple to oranges type thing. That said, I guess the biggest reason to speak in terms of BB/hour is to compare across different limits, so just using any one consistent method would work. So if you are just doing itto keep track of your own play at various limits, just use the same method each time. | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour), Keffo, 9. Dec 2003 02:06 | ||
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| Thanks for sharing... So you are convinced that playnig more tables at lower limits is more profitable than one high limit table? I assume you make your money by just playign "correctly", but you must muiss out on "playing the players", am I right? And also, what method do you use to keep track of your winnings? | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour) --- The GURU, Jack, 13. Dec 2003 09:44 | ||
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| 1 1.5 bb per hour is almost a joke in online poker Ofcourse 5 players out of 10 wont make anything But if we are only talking about the average winning players then the average pot maybe an important part of the calculation 'the very good++' winning player will win 2-4x the average pot every hour and lose 1-3x the average pot every hour So if the average pot is around 20$ a winning player will be up 10-20$ every hour... | ||
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| Re: Winning rate (1-1.5 BB/hour) --- The GURU, bkholdem, 14. Dec 2003 18:53 | ||
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| I play 2-4 in B&M casino and average 4BB/hr. The game at this level, with the lack of skilled opponents is a joke. I expect my win rate to increase as I included stats from when I just started playing about 4 months ago and made many amature mistakes. Heck, my last session 9hrs of play I made 7BB/hr. I can't imagine that the players are so weak at the 5-10, 10-20 and up? | ||
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