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Server Time: 12/1/2008 3:09:30 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, mkpoker, 1. Dec 2003 09:49 | ||
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| As regular readers of this forum know, I often post up hands when I'm unsure about my play. Usually, I have a specific question (Should I have bet the river? Should I have mucked on the turn?, etc.) It's somewhat unusual that I'm totally confused by a hand from start to finish...but that's what happened here. Anxious to hear how others would have played. I'm at the fishiest online 3/6 table I've seen in some time. Loose passive calling stations galore. Best session in a long while. From the BB, I'm dealt 9d3c, total trash. I'll fold to any raise, but there are 5 limpers and I get a free play (perhaps the last street I played correctly, lol). The flop comes 4d8d3d, giving me bottom pair and a 9-high flush draw. I'm thinking: If I'm not facing a made flush (a big if), I might just have the best hand--the limpers most likely holdings are overcards. However, my hand is ridiculously vulnerable. Someone is certainly on a better flush draw than I, and with so many limpers, I'm virtually dead to any high overcard. I think about betting, to drive out non-diamond overcards, but instead decide to check. I'll often bet when I catch a piece of a rainbow rag flop, but here, my hand and position is so weak that I decide to check. My situation is so tenuous that I resolve to muck to virtually any serious interest in the pot. To my surprise, it's checked to the button, who bets. The button is the most aggressive player at the table. It's very possible he's on nothing but overcards and wants to drive out his competition. I call (seriously thought about raising to limit the field). UTG is the only other caller--he's the loosest, most passive player I've ever seen. Turn is 6c, virtually a total blank, although it puts some unlikely str8 draws on the board. Again, I contemplate betting or checking and elect to check. Ultimately, I'm just not confident enough in my hand AND this table is so loaded with calling stations, I doubt I'll win the pot outright. UTG checks (clearly, he's not on a made flush). Button bets. Still, I figure he's on an overcard draw (probably with diamonds as well). I contemplate raising here as well, but elect to call. I figure, he could re-raise with either a made flush or a flush draw with overcards. So if he re-reraises, I still won't know for certain if I'm ahead or behind! UTG calls. River is the Jd [Board now 4d8d3d6cJd], giving me a middle flush (with my 9d). I'm beat by either the Td, Qd, Kd, or Ad...and I figure it's better than 50-50 that someone has me beat, so I resolve to check/call. I check, UTG checks, button checks. Passive UTG holds 8h2h (yes, he called UTG with that), ends with middle pair... Aggressive button holds 6d6h (turned a set, rivered a lower flush) My J9 flush holds up. Button calls me a "Fcking rtrard." I usually ignore such comments but couldn't resist here. I write, "Did you say something? Sorry, wasn't paying attention...Too busy stacking your chips." So, how would have played this trashy hand? Dump on the flop? Raise the turn to see where I stood? I still don't know the "right play." | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Aisthesis, 1. Dec 2003 11:05 | ||
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| Wow! At any normal table I would have said for sure dump on the flop (I just wouldn't have felt sufficiently comfortable with only the 9 even if I did make the flush; that may also be another NL thing, but from a limit perspective, I would think one would still need to put in some kind of "value reduction" factor in the pot odds calculation--at a normal table at least 50% reduction, here no doubt a lot less), but your take on the players involved seems to me to have justified the way you played it. Basically, for my thinking, it all boiled down to whether the flush draw with the 9 was worth taking a chance on or not. At that table it apparently was. But I still wouldn't have wanted to bet it any more aggressively than you did. With the calling stations there, you're not thinning out the field, and on the turn, before the 4th diamond has fallen, you're still wanting to keep your cost of seeing the last card as low as possible. Sounds to me like you played it quite well. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, danimales, 1. Dec 2003 11:21 | ||
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| I also have to say that was played well. Although one could make an argument to fold after the button bet after the flop, especially with you sitting in EP. Lucky for you, the hand was checked past the River so you could stay in for free. I believe the button who landed his set of sixes on the flop should have been a bit more agressive. He should have bet out until another diamond it the field. For him to call you a fcking bastard is insane. Yes, you got lucky on the river, but you saw those cards for free! Bottom line, you played it well, he played it poorly. His attempt at a profane insult was uncalled for. But I love your response! | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Grateful Rooster, 1. Dec 2003 12:18 | ||
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| I think you played this difficult hand quite well. You combined read of cards and players quite nicely. If the button bettor had been a tight, tough player, a fold might have been warranted, but with an overaggressive player, you had too much not to call him down. You might barely have had adjusted pot odds on the flush draw holding only the 9, but the trip 3 draw added some potential back. With no raise from UTG, you needn't fear him. Still, you had a dangerously middle-strong hand, so you don't want to press too hard. You got to call it down pretty cheaply, so this was the right call. I suspect OTB would have played identically with the nut flush, so you had to play with caution. You sniffed it out well. Nice play. --GR | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Grateful Rooster, 1. Dec 2003 12:35 | ||
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| On the other hand (just reread your post), if you figure OTB for over flush draw on the turn, what do you figure OTB is calling with? He must have something. Would he call w/ just overcards (no draws)? If not, then your 3s are not likely to be any good -- and 3-way the odds are not good regardless. So, there is a strong liklihood you were drawing dead. You can't count ANY solid outs. This would be a reasonable argument for folding to the turn bet. In a case like that, I usually trust my instincts (i.e. my table/player read), which works better in B&Ms, but worked for you at the online table. --GR | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Schuster, 1. Dec 2003 13:01 | ||
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| Even if your hand is best on the flop, you're a big dog by the river against 5 other players. What do you do if the turn is a diamond and the puck bets? Or what if the puck bet gets 3 other callers instead of just the one? I think a check/fold on the flop is in order. The button isn't likely to outright bluff against a large field on that flop. He either has a good draw or a hand he's trying to protect. The good draw is even money or better on you by the river, and hand he might be trying to protect is certainly better than your current holding. I'd check fold on the flop. Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, ReMMy, 1. Dec 2003 13:27 | ||
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| MK, I would have raised the flop or folded right there. If UTG calls 2 bets, and button then raises to 3 I would fold. If UTG folds and button raises, I would have to consider if he was making a play at the pot, but would probably fold since I'm out of position and even if the diamond hits I'm still unsure where I stand. If UTG folds and button calls, I would bet the turn to see where if I can buy the pot right there. I just think calling to the river in LLHE is generally a weak play unless your trying to get additional calls into the pot for your made hand. Just my thoughts, guess I disagree with the previous posters... ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, ReMMy, 1. Dec 2003 13:30 | ||
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| Every post I make today I want to add something to after sending it(even though I reread before posting). I said I would probably fold after raising the flop if all folded and button raised. I think at that point I would pay the additional bet to see if I improve, but fold to a turn bet if I didn't. I still say folding or raising the flop are the only good options on the flop in the long run for this situation. ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Wren, 1. Dec 2003 14:36 | ||
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| It sounds like you were in quite an excellent game, so why screw around with pieces of cheese out of position? Most anyone at that table with a diamond higher than yours is going to kick around, and a flush could already be there. There's really no card that can come in which you'll feel really good about the situation and not be in a position in which you're still guessing. I'd just check/fold that garbage and wait for a better opportunity. on 1. Dec 2003 09:49 mkpoker wrote: > As regular readers of this forum know, I often post up hands when I'm unsure > about my play. Usually, I have a specific question (Should I have bet the > river? Should I have mucked on the turn?, etc.) > > It's somewhat unusual that I'm totally confused by a hand from start to > finish...but that's what happened here. Anxious to hear how others would have > played. > > I'm at the fishiest online 3/6 table I've seen in some time. Loose passive > calling stations galore. Best session in a long while. > > From the BB, I'm dealt 9d3c, total trash. I'll fold to any raise, but there > are 5 limpers and I get a free play (perhaps the last street I played correctly, > lol). > > The flop comes 4d8d3d, giving me bottom pair and a 9-high flush draw. > > I'm thinking: If I'm not facing a made flush (a big if), I might just have the > best hand--the limpers most likely holdings are overcards. However, my hand is > ridiculously vulnerable. Someone is certainly on a better flush draw than I, > and with so many limpers, I'm virtually dead to any high overcard. > > I think about betting, to drive out non-diamond overcards, but instead decide > to check. I'll often bet when I catch a piece of a rainbow rag flop, but here, > my hand and position is so weak that I decide to check. My situation is so > tenuous that I resolve to muck to virtually any serious interest in the pot. > > To my surprise, it's checked to the button, who bets. The button is the most > aggressive player at the table. It's very possible he's on nothing but > overcards and wants to drive out his competition. I call (seriously thought > about raising to limit the field). UTG is the only other caller--he's the > loosest, most passive player I've ever seen. > > Turn is 6c, virtually a total blank, although it puts some unlikely str8 draws > on the board. Again, I contemplate betting or checking and elect to check. > Ultimately, I'm just not confident enough in my hand AND this table is so loaded > with calling stations, I doubt I'll win the pot outright. UTG checks (clearly, > he's not on a made flush). Button bets. Still, I figure he's on an overcard > draw (probably with diamonds as well). I contemplate raising here as well, but > elect to call. I figure, he could re-raise with either a made flush or a flush > draw with overcards. So if he re-reraises, I still won't know for certain if > I'm ahead or behind! UTG calls. > > River is the Jd [Board now 4d8d3d6cJd], giving me a middle flush (with my 9d). > I'm beat by either the Td, Qd, Kd, or Ad...and I figure it's better than 50-50 > that someone has me beat, so I resolve to check/call. I check, UTG checks, > button checks. > > Passive UTG holds 8h2h (yes, he called UTG with that), ends with middle > pair... > Aggressive button holds 6d6h (turned a set, rivered a lower flush) > > My J9 flush holds up. Button calls me a "Fcking rtrard." I usually ignore > such comments but couldn't resist here. I write, "Did you say something? > Sorry, wasn't paying attention...Too busy stacking your chips." > > So, how would have played this trashy hand? Dump on the flop? Raise the turn > to see where I stood? I still don't know the "right play." | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, mkpoker, 1. Dec 2003 15:58 | ||
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| Where 'ya been Wren! We've missed you. You're right about this hand, BTW. I was in a game with a huge edge and played a hand with a small edge, if any at all. And because of my hand's uncertainty, combined with impossibility of buying the pot through aggressive play, there way no way I could expand that edge during the course of play. It became a crapshoot...and when you've got the edge, there's no reason to take even bets. As an aside, games like these make me wonder about the importance of moving up in stakes. I usually play 5/10 now, but I could easily earn a much better return in this 3/6 game. Just goes to show...the GAME is more important than the limits. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Schuster, 1. Dec 2003 17:18 | ||
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| > As an aside, games like these make me wonder about the importance of moving up in stakes. > I usually play 5/10 now, but I could easily earn a much better return in this 3/6 game. > Just goes to show...the GAME is more important than the limits. Indeed mk. A month ago, I'd play online 3/6 with the occasional 5/10 if I saw a good game. Then I had to drop a bit of my bankroll on some expenses, so I couldn't really sit comfortably in the 5/10. Back to the 3/6, right? Not quite. Lately I've found that the 2/4 is just horribly bad, so I've been sitting there. I easily earn an extra 50% BB an hour there over the 3/6, and there's less variance too it seems. So that's where I'm playing until I get back to the 5/10 level. Higher limits don't always mean more income if the lower limit game is super soft. Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Wren, 2. Dec 2003 10:09 | ||
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| Kinda went on poker hiatus for a little while, but couldn't stay away too long! I love the game too much, and I missed you guys here too :O) You have precisely the right idea here - when you're playing in an excellent game, it's easy to exploit big edges, so there isn't really the need to try to find what might amount to a tiny edge, but with huge variance. And yes - you want to play in situations in which you are in control and your opponents are making big mistakes. This is why I generally try to avoid ultra-aggressive games - when the pot is routinely raised, reraised and capped preflop, it becomes more correct for players to stay in with cheesy holdings, which means less mistakes to exploit. Loose/passive games are +EV heaven! And yeah, the game to play in pretty much becomes an equation, with some guesswork. Essentially, play the highest limit that you feel comfortable in, and can handle the swings of, that will provide the best hourly rate at the time. on 1. Dec 2003 15:58 mkpoker wrote: > Where 'ya been Wren! We've missed you. > > You're right about this hand, BTW. I was in a game with a huge edge and played a hand > with a small edge, if any at all. And because of my hand's uncertainty, combined with > impossibility of buying the pot through aggressive play, there way no way I could expand > that edge during the course of play. It became a crapshoot...and when you've got the > edge, there's no reason to take even bets. > > As an aside, games like these make me wonder about the importance of moving up in stakes. > I usually play 5/10 now, but I could easily earn a much better return in this 3/6 game. > Just goes to show...the GAME is more important than the limits. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Barry T, 2. Dec 2003 13:11 | ||
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| Hi. I am with Wren. There must be better spots in this game to get your money in. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Boftx, 1. Dec 2003 15:55 | ||
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| I *must* be missing something here. Please forgive me if this comes out wrong because it must certainly isn't meant to be harsh. I see two glaring errors here. First, you seem to be looking at the button thru rose-tinted glasses. The flop is a clear fold/raise situation. Either dump it or raise to thin it out and maybe get a half-price river. And yes, that play does work on 3/6 tables at Party. As it happened, the button would certainly bet at the turn with his set, but then you could decide whether to fish for the river or fold it down. Second, I think the button made a huge mistake by not betting the river and making you fold since you were so sure he had an overcard diamond. If you still called such a bet, especially after giving your thinking at the time, then you are exactly the same as all the other calling stations you, and the rest of us, lick our chops at. Simply put, he had you beat the whole way to the river and you drew out on him. If anything, he was aware enough to figure either you or the UTG stuck with nothing to catch the flush and knew his 6-high was no good. He just didn't want to try bluffing a couple of calling stations. I would feel differently if you had made a play at the flop. Jim BTW, if the table was really that passive and loose, then coming in from UTG with 82s was questionable but not stupid given he almost got the 7:1 pot odds he wanted. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, mkpoker, 1. Dec 2003 16:18 | ||
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| on 1. Dec 2003 15:55 Boftx wrote: > I *must* be missing something here. Please forgive me if this comes out wrong > because it must certainly isn't meant to be harsh. Matt Says: Doesn't sound harsh at all. I mean, my opponent called me a "fcking rtrd"...anything else seems modest by comparison. > > I see two glaring errors here. > > First, you seem to be looking at the button thru rose-tinted glasses. The flop is a > clear fold/raise situation. Either dump it or raise to thin it out and maybe get a > half-price river. And yes, that play does work on 3/6 tables at Party. As it > happened, the button would certainly bet at the turn with his set, but then you could > decide whether to fish for the river or fold it down. Matt Says: Dumping was probably the right play. But given the situation, I think raising would have been a mistake. I would have laid 3:1 that the UTG would call any bet, single, raise, or 3-bet. There was no way I was winning this hand without a showdown. Moreover, button's bet could have been a bluff or a "thin the field" bet. This guy--an aggressive player--sees a scary flop and no one bets; 4 checks to him. He figures, heck, maybe I can take this right here. We've all made that bet from time-to-time. > > Second, I think the button made a huge mistake by not betting the river and making > you fold since you were so sure he had an overcard diamond. If you still called such > a bet, especially after giving your thinking at the time, then you are exactly the > same as all the other calling stations you, and the rest of us, lick our chops at. Matt Says: I think I would have made a crying call at the river, had he bet. > > Simply put, he had you beat the whole way to the river and you drew out on him. > Matt Says: It's true. Ironically, I thought the Jd was a bad card for me. It turned out to be the one that won the pot. > If anything, he was aware enough to figure either you or the UTG stuck with nothing > to catch the flush and knew his 6-high was no good. He just didn't want to try > bluffing a couple of calling stations. Matt Says: Possibly, but not necessarily. With trips, he has the right odds to draw for a FH, even if he's facing a made flush. You're right on the river, though, he figured no chance to win by bluff. > > I would feel differently if you had made a play at the flop. > > Jim > > BTW, if the table was really that passive and loose, then coming in from UTG with > 82s was questionable but not stupid given he almost got the 7:1 pot odds he wanted. > | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis...Confused from BB, Boftx, 1. Dec 2003 17:15 | ||
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| on 1. Dec 2003 16:18 mkpoker wrote: > on 1. Dec 2003 15:55 Boftx wrote: > > I *must* be missing something here. Please forgive me if this comes out wrong > > because it must certainly isn't meant to be harsh. > > Matt Says: Doesn't sound harsh at all. I mean, my opponent called me a "fcking > rtrd"...anything else seems modest by comparison. > > That was probably the nicest thing I was called this weekend :-) | ||
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