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Server Time: 1/8/2009 9:12:24 AM PACIFIC |
 knocking out the small stack, Aisthesis, 28. Nov 2003 18:33 | ||
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| Just finished a SnG in 5th place (4 in the money) after establishing a big chip lead early with just basic tight-aggressive play. It was a lead that I really shouldn't have let slip away from me. Aside from various mistakes I made to accomplish this feat, I was wondering if there's a general "rule of thumb" as to who needs to go about knocking out the small stacks once you're down to 7 or 8 players. The other small or smallish stacks just weren't doing it--at least not very aggressively. So, I took more risks there than I should have and got myself in trouble from a situation where I probably would have been in the money just by folding every hand. So my question is: Is it indeed the primary responsibility of big stack to knock the really small stacks out? If so, I'm guessing you still need to wait for pretty strong hands to call the all-ins of somewhat desperate but tenacious and skillful small stacks--particularly since the increasing blinds are just going to add to their desperation (and it's a REALLY BAD thing to let them get back in the game). | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, 4 POKER, 28. Nov 2003 19:00 | ||
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| Hi Aisthesis I don't play s-n-g's but I would gather to say, that if there were still 7 to 8 players remaining, unless the short stack player was so low on chips, then I wouldn't call their all-in or try to bust them out unless I had a decent hand myself and/or, you were in a (good) position to make the call or raise. If you're in one of the blinds, and one of the short stacks goes all-in, then of course you would call no matter what you were holding - but other then that you still want to pick your spots carefully, even with a good chip lead or your own stack may dwindle too much. So keep to your tight-aggresive play, and do not go overboard. I think the other small stacks are trying to hang on - that's why they weren't getting involved. 4P- | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, Aisthesis, 29. Nov 2003 01:28 | ||
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| Well, here was the beginning of my slow but steady downfall (doing it from memory since my email server still hasn't delivered the hand histories): We've all just moved to the final table, maybe one orbit. And I don't really have as good a read as I should have on the unfamiliar faces. Blinds are 200/400, I think. I'm sitting on a stack of 6,000 or so, which was the lead (one other player had over 5,000 and most were down below 2,000). I'm in BB with J9s. Everyone folds all the way through the button. SB, who has about 1,800 in chips, goes all in. Well, I wouldn't have much of a problem with J9s in a multi-way pot, and I consider it a decent hand heads-up but certainly not great (I'd have to know something very particular about my opponent in a straight heads-up to call an all-in with it). But I interpret the all-in as an attempted blind steal and call it (by that time I really should have already known that this guy was really tight and might be a very hard nut to crack despite his small stack). He turns over KJo, basically killing my J, the board gives him a K, and he wins. I don't know, I guess it's probably a borderline case. But if I just let him take my 400 this time, he's still in trouble, and I'm still the big stack. After he wins, he's now in decent shape at 3,600, and my position has deteriorated substantially. So, I really think I should have just let it go and waited to move aggressively on some better hands and hopefully also with a better grip on how the new faces at the final table were playing. | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, 4 POKER, 29. Nov 2003 01:41 | ||
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| Exactly. If he had alot less chips and/or if you had an even bigger stack, then I would have called him for sure. Try to knock him out. But like you said (and realized), by you calling his 1800 all-in bet, you then put your own stack at risk a bit also. Hence, no need to pump up his stack just to leave yourself with an average chip count now instead of remaining as one of the chip leaders. If your hand was much stronger, sure, make the call. 4P- | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, ReMMy, 28. Nov 2003 19:57 | ||
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| Aisthesis, It is not your "job" to bust players when you are the chip lead. Feel free to make a coin toss play such as calling w/ 99 or the like, but let it go with a hand like AJo unless you are in the blinds and it really won't hurt you. You also need to remember to switch gears once you lose 1 or 2 of these coin flips. If you no longer have a healthy chip lead then stop taking those coin flips and go back to your tight aggressive play. Good luck, ReMMy. | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, Aisthesis, 29. Nov 2003 00:59 | ||
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| Thanks! That sounds like very good advice. If I'm understanding you correctly, the job of elimination has less to do with chip standings than it does with truly having a hand with which it's appropriate to call, raise or whatever against the given player. And I definitely didn't in the relevant cases. So I guess the moral of the story is just to stay on your A-game regardless of stack size and just play the hands as they come. For me, I get a pretty big adrenaline rush at the beginning of a tournament, which I think usually makes me more aware and hence a better player, but it's not sustainable. So, after a while I got more the feeling of mental overload and was playing pretty bad poker--particularly at this 18 player SnG, where as the first table dwindled I had to switch into shorthanded mode, then back again into full-table mode when everyone left was put at the final table. I probably need to work more on just staying pretty calm at the beginning and leaving myself with plenty of mental energy to turn up my concentration progressively at the final table. | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, Mark Barnett II, 4. Dec 2003 11:32 | ||
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| actually i think he is saying eliminating stacks has a lot to do with stack size versus cards. the better your cards the less stack size matters the worse your cards the more stack size matters extreme examples heads up, any chance you fold AA? (regardless of stacks) heads up, all in is a drop in the bucket raise compared to your stack (like 50 in your tourney example) any chance you fold anything? heads up, coin flips when losing drops your stack a chunk any reason to play unless knocking out that specific player at that specific time increases your payout *odds of winning it all or cashing* i think in general when people talk about large stacks bullying small ones is when there is a massive difference in sizes of stacks *as posted above like 10X* or when eliminating someone clearly increases your payout *example might be you have the same situation that happened to you but it was Phil Hellmuth your deciding against, knock him out and your chances go way up on winning, letting him stick around probably hurts your chances, AKA reading your opponents and knocking out those you think are good* Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, LJH, 29. Nov 2003 17:31 | ||
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| Aisthesis, IT was not your job to knock out the small stacks since you were only mid size. just protect your self, and stay in sthe running. ljh | ||
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| Re: knocking out the small stack, Paul Stine, 30. Nov 2003 20:31 | ||
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| on 28. Nov 2003 18:33 Aisthesis wrote: > Just finished a SnG in 5th place (4 in the money) after establishing a big chip > lead early with just basic tight-aggressive play. It was a lead that I really > shouldn't have let slip away from me. > Aside from various mistakes I made to accomplish this feat, I was wondering if > there's a general "rule of thumb" as to who needs to go about knocking out the > small stacks once you're down to 7 or 8 players. The other small or smallish > stacks just weren't doing it--at least not very aggressively. So, I took more > risks there than I should have and got myself in trouble from a situation where > I probably would have been in the money just by folding every hand. > So my question is: Is it indeed the primary responsibility of big stack to > knock the really small stacks out? If so, I'm guessing you still need to wait > for pretty strong hands to call the all-ins of somewhat desperate but tenacious > and skillful small stacks--particularly since the increasing blinds are just > going to add to their desperation (and it's a REALLY BAD thing to let them get > back in the game). Here is my 'rule of thumb': You can't win any tournament if you lose all your chips. Closely related is: 'Your job is not to eliminate players with the exception of the guy you knock out in second place.' I see way too many 'big stacks' spew off chips tyring to knock out players when holding marginal hands and in doing so enable other players to remain in the hunt. If you have 3X the chips that the "small stack' has and you lose. Your 'big stack' is now equal to the 'small stack'. You need to have a much greater stack (10X or so) before you start making it your mission to end the tournament. Otherwise, the tournament you end will probably be your own. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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