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Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:33:50 PM PACIFIC |
 Lee Jones' Starting Hands, CRCarson, 26. Nov 2003 22:50 | ||
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| Am I the only person who finds Lee Jones' starting hands incredibly complex? I tried typing up the summary charts of Pre-Flop Early Position No Raises to Me, Pre-Flop Early Position Raise to Me, etc. Man, this is a lot to memorize or even look at on a chart. Certainly not your "Blackjack and pairs" type of thing, that's for sure. Is there an easy way to commit all this to memory (or at least to paper)? | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, ADAM THE EXPERT, 27. Nov 2003 00:35 | ||
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| HA HA HA, SO THERE IS ANOTHER AUTHOR, CLAIM THAT THERE IS A "MAGIC CHART" FOR WHAT HOLD EM HANDS TO PLAY? THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY VARIABLES, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, HAVE A "THIRD POSITION, AGAINST A RAISER WHO'S STUCK AND STEAMING" LIST? HERE ARE THE FACTS: THERE IS NO MAGIC FORMULA AVAILABLE, THE STARTING HANDS YOU PLAY, DEPEND ON FAR TOO MANY VARIABLES, TO MAKE UP ANY KIND OF "CHART" ALSO, IN SPITE OF WHAT THE SO-CALLED EXPERTS SAY, STARTING HANDS IN HOLD EM, ARE NOT NEARLY AS IMPORTANT, AS OTHER ASPECTS OF THE GAME, WITHIN REASON. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU JUST COME CHARGING INTO THE POT, WITH ANY OLD HAND, OF COURSE. WHAT I AM SAYING, IS THAT CREATIVITY, READING SKILLS, IMAGE PROJECTION AND FALSIFICATION, KNOWLEDGE OF BOARD TEXTURES, ETC. IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SOME "MAGIC CHART" OF STARTING HANDS. SOMETIMES, YOU'LL THROW AWAY AK, OR QQ AND SOMETIMES, YOU'LL RAISE WITH A 98suited IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF GAME YOU'RE IN, THE TENDENCIES OF THE PLAYERS, THE TYPE OF IMAGE YOU'VE ESTABLISHED, AND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHEIVE, BY PLAYING THE HAND. REMEMBER, WINNING THE POT, IS ONLY ONE OF THE REASONS, FOR PLAYING A HAND. IF YOU BECOME REALLY, REALLY AT ASSESSING THE SITUATION, AND KNOW WHAT THE OPPONENTS HAVE, AND WHAT THEY ARE MOST LIKELY TO DO, SOMETIMES, YOU CAN PLAY A HAND WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING AT IT !!! !! (DON'T BELIEVE ME, ASK DOYLE BRUNSON, HE'LL SAY THE SAME THING) IF JONES HANDS, ARE TOO COMPLICATED TO REMEMBER, STICK WITH THE SKLANSKY/MALMUTH FAMOUS "GROUPS' THEY MAY NOT BE COMPLETELY ACCURATE, BUT THEY ARE EASY TO REMEMBER, AND HAVE A WELL-ESTABLISHED PLACE, IN THE LEXICON OF POKER JARGON. IF YOU TRY TO DISCUSS POKER WITH SOMEONE, AND YOU REFER TO A LEE JONES RANK OF HANDS, NO ONE WILL KNOW WHAT THE FORK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. BUT, IF YOU ASK "SHOULD I PLAY A GROUP TWO HAND, IN EARLY POSITION" EVERYONE WILL KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. (LEE JONES, I'M NOT REALLY TRYING TO "DISS" YOU, BUT FACE IT, TRYING TO REWRITE THE SKLANSKY "GROUPS" IS LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO MAKE A NEW CANDY BAR, AND COMPETE WITH SNICKERS AND REESES. | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, CRCarson, 27. Nov 2003 06:57 | ||
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| Gee, in my few weeks of reading posts in this forum, the one refrain I have heard over and over again is to read Lee Jones' book. So I did. Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to implement what everyone has been saying is good advice by that author. The New Guy | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, Blade, 27. Nov 2003 13:58 | ||
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| When I read the book the first time I found it confusing and complex. After playing another month I went back and reread it and found it very insightful. This might be something you want to try. As for charts and list I rountinely use them in many facets of my life as it corresponds with the way I think and learn so if they help you then why not use them. As far as Lee Jones and his creditentials, he is universally (minus 1 I guess) respected. | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, Pale Ale, 27. Nov 2003 18:01 | ||
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| CRCarson and Blade. Everybody DOES have to start somewhere. I believe ADAM is communicating the notion that poker is a very fluid game. If you can imagine dumping a glass of water on just about anything, you'll note that it doesn't follow any set pattern and that minute differences can change it's whole course. That about sums up poker. What I believe he is trying to express is that by following set rules from the beginning, you may forever place yourself in a box. Take a look at this link from Steve Badgers site. http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/00/21.html It is an article on the very point (I think) that ADAM is trying to make. For newer players, charts can be valuable learning tools...IF you train your focus on the WHY'S of the recommendations, not just the recommendations themselves. NOTE TO ADAM: Again, I think it is your delivery that is shutting doors, not your message. PA | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, MA's Dad, 27. Nov 2003 19:15 | ||
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| Thanks Pale Ale. I had been to Steve Badger's site on previous occasions and missed that article entirely or did not think it pertinent at the time. If that is what ADAM was saying, I apologize for missing it. Stepping back out of one's learning process and looking at it can certainly prevent ruts from developing before they start. There is definitely a lot to be valued in Jones' book, but using it as a Bible rather than a tool for improvement is where I may have been headed. Thanks to ADAM as well. Maybe I am simply slow, but after re-reading his post, it makes more sense now. I like your board image and all, but extracting the good info from your posts is too much like a puzzle at this point. I'll continue to read them, wait for a forum interpreter to reply and then re-read them from here on out. | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, Pale Ale, 27. Nov 2003 19:30 | ||
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| Hey MA's Dad. No prob. But note, I am not applying for that job. lol Besides...he's plenty capable of doing it himself. Just a question of wanting to. PA | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, MA's Dad, 27. Nov 2003 16:00 | ||
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| I am no EXPERT, but I have found Jones' suggestions incredibly helpful. He says numerous times throughout the text that his pairings were not passed down from up on high and should only serve as guidlines for novices trying to get a feel for what to play and when to play it. Also, maybe at the higher limits it is all about the checklist of observations that others mention and it is certainly true your competition, table texture, et.al. are important at low limit Hold 'Em, but with the low limit games that Jones' book targets where people call no matter what, you need to show the best hand. Maybe you can play hands without looking at your cards at $2/$4 tables, but my guess is that when you do and when there are 6 people in on the flop and 4 at the showdown, you are not going to be picking up many chips when you go home. As for memorization, I am shackled to online games as there are no cardrooms in my state. My learning of Jones' suggested starters has been through having the book open and beside me at all times. Even now that I have most of them down, I keep it as a refresher/guidline after getting a feel for the type of game and players with which I am involved at the time. I am sure once I have years of experience playing Hold 'Em, those pairings will mean nothing to me, but for now they are keeping me from leaking out lots of money at low limit online games. Again, I am still learning so take my advice with that in mind. -tj | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, Boftx, 1. Dec 2003 13:57 | ||
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| You can find a similar, but very easy to use chart at lowlimitholdem.com. It is sized such that you can keep most of it visible onscreen underneath a table at Party or UB on a monitor with 1024x768 resolution. Only the starting hands for EP are not seen in that setup (but they are simple to learn). CAUTION!! This table, like all the others, is meant only to be a guideline/sanity check, and is a bit looser than Jones suggests, especially on suited A's and K's. Jim | ||
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| Re: Lee Jones' Starting Hands, shorn, 2. Dec 2003 08:30 | ||
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| I would use Sklansky's as guidelines. They are set up in an easy way to memorize and if you still have trouble (an are playing online), just make a copy of that page in the book and keep it next to your monitor. | ||
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