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Server Time: 8/21/2008 1:34:10 PM PACIFIC |
 A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, mkpoker, 25. Nov 2003 22:04 | ||
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| (How's that for a subject line)...Just played 3/6 at UB for about 2.5 hours with Phil and 50-odd observers chatting constantly. Was a lot of fun. The game actually wasn't too tough. Huge pots every hand with Phil raising on virtually anything. Tried to stay super-patient and play only premium hands. Easier said than done...was tough to resist the impulse to "mix it up" with Phil. I had the worst position at the table--just to Phil's right. Absolutely no chance to steal. He defended every blind and reraised virtually all my raises. The table was average looseness---people wanted to play, but didn't want to pay 2-3 bets pre-flop every hand.) So, from MP, I'm dealt JcQc. 3 callers to me. In this game, this is a borderline hand, but with 3 limpers already in, I limp. Predictably, Phil raises and all call. Phil's raise means nothing about his hand. Flop comes JsQsKs, giving me bottom two-pair. It's bet AND raised on my right. I call (I seriously considered folding or raising here). Phil calls and the original bettor re-raises. Now I figure I'm in trouble, but I'm getting odds on the last call for a four-outer to a FH, so I call along with three others. Turn comes Ac. Now, any T makes a straight (of course, a T on the river might split the pot multi-way). I've still got 4 outs to a FH, which if I hit, will probably be good (but no guarantees). Original bettor bets, 1 caller to me, I call (possibly an error?), and Phil calls. River is a total blank, 3d [Board of JsQsKsAc3d]. Original bettor bets out, 1 caller. I'm virtually certain I'm beat, but the pot is quite large, so I make a crying call. Phil folds. Early bettor has As9s, flopped the nut flush. MP had KdTh, flopped top pair, turned the straight. Two pair is a good hand, but I wonder if I should have given up earlier (on the flop, turn, or river). What would you have done? | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, bigtizzle, 26. Nov 2003 00:22 | ||
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| I think you were right to call with the odds you were getting on the flop and the turn, but with the flush and a four straight on the board, I probably would have saved my bet on the end. I'm not saying that I never make a crying call on the river, but with the reraise preflop, you can be pretty sure that your two pair is beaten. (And this just may be me, but I would be pretty intimidated reraising a pot that I knew Phil Hellmuth was calling on without having the nuts. But I have some confidence issues that I'm dealing with.) | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, Aisthesis, 26. Nov 2003 00:37 | ||
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| Wow! very interesting! How'd you end up doing overall? Did Phil mop up with the table as a whole? I'm still way too scared to get in a game with any of these guys, but maybe a future UPF tourney will offer some opportunity for a taste... As to the question, in NL I would have had to let it go on the flop despite the two pair, but in limit your call may well have been correct. I would have basically assumed made straight or flush on the flop from either bettor or raiser. Did you have pot odds for the boat? You might have been able to get by with a little less (on the chance that your hand was good on the flop), but it would depend a lot on your read of the players betting into you, I would think. | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, shorn, 26. Nov 2003 05:25 | ||
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| I would have dumped on the flop as you could hit your card and still lose. Plus, with a 3 suited board, it is going to cost you a fortune to get there. You also have to consider that Phil might re-raise and then it will be capped back to you on the flop...that is way too high a price to draw for a 4 outer that mihgt not be good (IMO). | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, Blazman, 26. Nov 2003 05:50 | ||
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| I would have bailed, the straight gives everyone else a straight too , and with 4 people in the hand someone has the straight already or the flush, or AK, what can you really beat with your hand at this point? Someone that is holding A-9 and thats it!! It also depends on the guy that had the flush, is he a rock? if so then you absolutely have to bail. I play the pot odds when it's a close call but in my opinion your beat at this point and when you know your beat you have to bail. -Blazman | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, Barry T, 26. Nov 2003 08:35 | ||
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| Hi. Your pre-flop call was good, event though the maniac was going to raise. (By the way, your position WRT the maniac was excellent., if you ever make a hand). On the flop, you have nothing. You have no reason to believe you have the best hand, and certainly no reason to believe you have the best draw. What do pot odds mean when you have zero pure outs. (what if someone has KQ or QQ, for example). You got carried away by bottom two pair when, even in the rermote chance your hand was good (after a bet and raise?) you will still lose on the turn or river over half the time. Any spade, ace, ten or king should beat you. This should be an easy muck. BarryT | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, mkpoker, 26. Nov 2003 09:01 | ||
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| Yep, I should have mucked this much earlier. Given the absence of preflop raises from solid players, I doubted anyone held KK or QQ, but KJ, KQ, and AJ were definite possibilities, all of which tainted my outs to a FH. BarryT is right that I got carried away with my hand (in part because 2-pair is USUALLY good and in part because playing with Phil undoubtedly affected my objectivity). As usual, BarryT's comments are 1,000 percent on the mark. (Separate and apart from my questionable draw, my call on the river was a flat-out donation...what was I thinking?!) In response to others' questions, I did fine in the game, earning just over 2 BB/hr. It was a different kind of game, but not a super-tough one. Phil routinely overplayed his hands (once, for example, I held AJ and the flop was J-high. Phil raised pre-flop AND post flop holding J4s). A few higher limit players drifted into the game, and they came out the big winners (I think because they had the patience not to be affected by the chatter and 'celebrity'). The big losers were players who usually played LL, but didn't adjust their starting requirements to the game. They would often limp pre-flop, find the pot raised and re-reraised, and then fold. Phil, incidentally, had huge bankroll swings and finished just ahead of where he started. I don't think it would be fair to say we faced the champ's "A" game...but it's a heck of a story! | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, Pale Ale, 26. Nov 2003 09:50 | ||
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| Compliments to Barry T. for cutting to the chase. His phrase, "bottom two pair," should really hit home. Because the upper echelon of starting hands is dominated by face cards, it is easy to fall in love with them. After folding trash hands for hours, QJs can look like AA. It's unfortunate that mk hit the flop so hard, but with such a coordinated/suited board. PA | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, noiseboy, 26. Nov 2003 09:21 | ||
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| You know a lot of people complain about Phil H., and often with good reason, but you have to like a guy who sits down at a Low Limit game with Five Grand, and plays like a total maniac! I played with him recently where I flopped top set and we capped it all the way to the river, it paired on the turn I believe making me a FH (probably him too), but when I 3 bet him on the river, he actually folded! I couldn't believe it, he probably had the 2nd best FH and was finally convinced I had a bigger one or quads, the pot was HUGE, but he folded. | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, Pale Ale, 26. Nov 2003 09:55 | ||
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| Actually...he probably did not, have 2nd best fullhouse. It is more likely he was playing the player and finally realized you were serious. Just an opinion. PA | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, noiseboy, 26. Nov 2003 11:34 | ||
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| I'm pretty sure he had something to raise me on the river with. I was the one who capped the flop and then the turn as well, then I bet out the river and he raised again. I just don't see how he could be in there with top pair or something. Then again, the stakes are so low for him that he might just have been trying to bluff me out. I know he doesn't really play his A-game at low limit, he mostly does it for fun and because he works for UB. | ||
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| Re: A hand from my game with Phil Hellmuth, SpaceAce, 28. Nov 2003 21:38 | ||
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| I would guess you probably didn't even get his "D" game. Phil is there to make the game fun. It's more fun for people to sit down at a game with the famous Phil Hellmuth and have the chips flying all over the place than to site down at a game with the famous Phill Hellmuth and have him fold 75% of his hands and take your money every time he enters a pot. Besides, how could someone like Phil possibly take $3/$6 seriously? I don't know exactly what the deal is with UltimateBet and the celebrity players but my guess is that they are there for excitement and not to take chips off the regular players. SpaceAce | ||
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