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Server Time: 10/6/2008 5:02:58 PM PACIFIC |
 Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., mark13poker, 24. Nov 2003 15:43 | ||
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| I'm a newbie here to the boards as well as low-limit Texas no-limit on-line poker. I read somwhere that once one has 4 of a suit (holding Ace high as one of the two cards in no-limit Texas Hold 'em poker) AFTER the flop, one should be thinking about how to get more money into the pot, The objective being, of course, two draws to a nut-flush. This assumes that you are holding the Ace. Alternatively, one could hold the King and another suited card if the flop shows the Ace of the same suit. (e.g. I once held Kd, 4d...with flop of Ad, 6d, 10h.....and I didn't make it on the turn or river.). For example, I was holding Ac, 10c, with the flop showing 8c, 3c, 2d I had three others call me (in a 10-person game) all the way through the river. The turn was a 10h, and the river was a 5sp....no nut flush. That wasn't too expensive. In yet another example, I was holding Kh, Jh, and the flop was an Ah, 2H, 6C. This time I got taken to the cleaners as the person called me 500 chips on the turn which was a 6. We both checked on the river and he reveals Ac, 6 sp winning with two pair. My question is have I completely mis-interpreted what one strategy book stated in getting as much money into the pot with the hope of a drawing the nut flush on the turn or river? I know the odds are slighly less than even of my making it, but am I nuts (!) in calling big $ to chase the nut flush?? It sounds reasonable, but I've lost this three times. Many thanks in advance! Mark | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., ReMMy, 24. Nov 2003 16:55 | ||
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| Mark, It sounds to me like you may be playing No Limit, which is TOTALLY different than limit. In limit you want to get as much money into the pot IF you have at least 2 callers with you, or if the pot is already big enough to lay the proper odds. In No Limit there is MUCH MUCH more involved, and I would suggest you don't play NL until you have mastered limit since I can't even begin to explain the proper way to play a nut flush draw in NL due to the fact that an expert player will approach this situation differently every time. As far as the 3 times a loser part, mathematical odds only hold true in the LONG run. Sometimes you will make your flush draw all 3 times, sometimes none, but as you approach an infinite # of hands, that number of times you make your flush draw will get closer to 35%. This is why you need a large enough bankroll to handle the short term fluctuation of the game. Good times, ReMMy | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., mark13poker, 24. Nov 2003 17:33 | ||
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| ReMMy, That's right. I have in fact played regular limit poker for many years and have done reasonably well. While the "get as much into the pot" is true with lmit poker, it just doesn't feel right with "no limit"....hence my question. Can you (or anyone else) recommend the best strategy book for no-limit hold 'em poker?? Perhaps the answer lies withing pages already written. Thanks! Mark | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., ReMMy, 24. Nov 2003 18:21 | ||
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| Doyle Brunsons Super System is an awesome NL book. I guess the biggest overall concept I could give you regarding your post is with NL you want to wait to "get as much money into the pot" until your hand is made. With a flush draw, you might want to get some more money into the pot to entice people to pay off later bets if/when you make your flush but you don't want to get "AS MUCH" money in the pot as possible while still on the draw(unless you think they may fold giving you the pot right there) | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., Robert M, 24. Nov 2003 17:34 | ||
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| In NL you don't usually need to value raise the pots because there is a good chance that someone else in the hand will do that for you. Also you look at implied odds based on your opponents stacks. If he bets, say 200 chips of his 2000 to let you see the river of a flop draw, and he has a semi-strong hand, I think it's a worthy call. If you make the nuts on the river you might be able to drag down another 500 or more(hopefully) from him (depending on his playing style) which gives you the implied odds to make that call. (is that betting 200 into an implied 1400+blinds and preflop pot?) Am I right? TY-------------------------R <------still no expert | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., Lou Krieger, 24. Nov 2003 17:46 | ||
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| on 24. Nov 2003 15:43 mark13poker wrote: "My question is have I completely mis-interpreted what one strategy book stated in getting as much money into the pot with the hope of a drawing the nut flush on the turn or river?" Mark, if you flop four to a flush, your odds of making that flush are 354 percent, or 1.86-to-1 against you. In a limit game, as long as you have pot odds that are 2-to-1 or better, you're getting the right price to draw for the flush. But in a no-limit game, a very big bet can manipulate the pot odds. Suppose I know you have a flush draw and nothing else and I have two pair, and let's just say there's $30 in the pot. If I want to take your odds away, all I have to do is make a big bet and it's incorrect for you to chase your flush because the pot odds will never come close to the 2-to-1 threshold you need. In the limit game, with $30 in the pot and I bet $10, you're facing a $10 call to win $40, so the pot odds exceed the odds against making your hand, which makes your call the proper play. But suppose we're playing no-limit and I bet $1,000 (a large sum, to be sure, but it makes this example crystal clear. Now your odds have been reduced from 4-to-1 to 1,030-to-1,000 (an essentially even money proposition) and you're still a 1.86-to-1 dog to make your hand. So you can't call. The odds against completing your hand have not changed, but the odds offered by the pot against the amount you must call in order to keep playing have changed dramatically. That's what's been happening to you, and it's not pretty, is it? Lou Krieger Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Internet Poker: How To Play and Beat Online Poker Games" and five other books about poker, at Royal Vegas Poker http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., mark13poker, 24. Nov 2003 18:23 | ||
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| Lou - Fantastic explanation....thank you! The NL game I'm playing in is an on-line 10-person tournament (Pardise Poker). So, with a $10 entry, 1st place is $50, 2nd is $30, and 3rd place is $20. Small potatoes. Anyway, one time I was the leader with 3200 chips and another player with half the stack called "all in" immediately after the flop (no pairs on the flop or str8 combos). I did not call as I did not feel comfortable with 35% odds of making my nut flush. He picked up about 300 of my chips and I went on to take 3rd place. I'll definitely need to pick up a book on how to play on-line, no limit tournament poker (if such a book exists). Thanks again!!! Mark | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., Jordan, 25. Nov 2003 09:49 | ||
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| Championship No Limit and Pot Hold Em by T.J. Cloutier and Tom McEvoy | ||
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| Re: Nut flush draw...3 times a loser., rdale, 26. Nov 2003 12:32 | ||
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| Position changes the way you play your nut flush draw a lot in no limit. Some times I play it like a made hand if late in position and I think I can get away with taking the pot right there. Sometimes I toss some chips in the pot to see where I'm at in the hand. Generally the pots I'm in have chips worth taking right there because limping is something I rarely do. If I do get a caller or two, and I make my flush and there isn't full house potential on the board, I check or make a small weak bet hoping that they will try to steal from me and hit them hard. In no limit I'm more likely to play my four cards to a hand draws stronger than in limit, especially if there is weakness in the air. I think the semi-bluff has much more value in no limit, as there is a good chance you can get the pot right there. I like pots with out showdowns, and would prefer to take a bunch of little pots than big ones with more people competing for it. Essentially mixing up the way you play your hand with the draws to the weakness and strength of your opponents is key to playing the draw. | ||
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