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Server Time: 12/1/2008 4:49:06 PM PACIFIC |
 in BB with 23d, zman, 24. Nov 2003 11:40 | ||
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| I was in a 3/6 limit game and was in the BB with 23d and was heads-up with a bad player. the flop is 2c 3s 7c. i bet 3 and he calls. the turn is Qd, i bet again and he calls. the river is Qh, i bet, he raises and i fold. this guy is terrible and i have a hard time reading him, i had misread him a couple of times already that session and lost a couple of pots to him at the showdown. sometimes he'll bet/raise his draw hands, and his more solid hands he will sometimes just call. when he called the flop i figured him for a flush draw or a gutshot str8. he also might have had any pair at this point but when he called on the turn i figured he was most likely on the draw i put him on. he could have had a Q with a bad kicker but i don't know why he would have called on the flop, and if he had AQ or something similar i would expect a raise on the turn. when the other Q came on the river i knew i had to bet to try to win the pot but his raise totally through me off. i believe folding was the right thing to do (even though i put him on a draw he could have had anything because he plays strangely and i can't read him) because i honestly can't see this particular player raising on the river with nothing. anything that i could put him on though would mean he should have either folded or raised prior to the river. what do you think he had? also, what should i look for when trying to read bad players? | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, mkpoker, 24. Nov 2003 12:22 | ||
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| It wasn't clear from your post, but I assume the "bad player" raised pre-flop, everyone folded, and you called, yes? I know it's not the point of your post, but I would have folded pre-flop, too. They want my blind that bad? Let 'em have it. I'll defend when I've got better cards. That said, I'd guess he had KQ or QJ--maybe QTs. Still, I'd pay him off every time. Why? 1. You're getting 8:1 on that final call. You're probably beat, but are you 90 percent sure? Against a "bad player" who's made questionable raises and calls all night, he COULD have anything. 2. You'll gain valuable information. By calling, you'll learn a) what does he raise with pre-flop? b) might he make a bluff-raise on the river? c) Will he call a flop bet with just overcards? I wouldn't pay $6 to find the answers if I KNEW I was beat, but getting this kind of information can act as a "tiebreaker," tipping a close decision between calling and folding toward a call. | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, jajo, 24. Nov 2003 13:41 | ||
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| Clearly, there isn't much he could have in this spot. On a flop of 2,3,7 typical players would have "missed" the flop completely if they are holding big cards. Small/medium pocket pairs are very strong on such a flop but it's not that easy to get a pocket pair. Basically, your opponent needs to have a queen or a seven to beat you. (it's very unlikely that he's playing any 2 or three and the fact that you are holding both of them makes it even more unlikelier) and that's only 5 cards in the deck. I would still assume that I have the best hand on the river even though, admittably, this hand has taken a huge plunge on the river. I would therefore check and call hoping to snap off a bluff. Folding is incorrecct since there are so few hands that your opponent can reasonably have to beat you. If you do choose to bet out on the river, I would still call a raise. Your opponent must have a queen to make his raise legit. There's just too much of a chance that he has nothing and he figures you're not very strong either and he'll get you off your hand with a raise. Unfortunately, he successded. | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, 3Kings, 24. Nov 2003 18:23 | ||
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| This is a classic situation where you are only going to get called if you are beat. (unless he is playing something like A2). His raise may mean a Q, a 7, another pair, or it may mean he missed his flush or straight draw and thinks you will fold. If you check, he might bet and you are getting 5 to 1 to call on the river. You lose no more money than if you bet and he might check it behind you. If he does bet and you call, you get to see how he playied his hand and maybe win. | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, zman, 25. Nov 2003 01:23 | ||
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| ok, thanks all. mkpoker, there was no pre-flop raise, if there was i wouldn't have called with those cards. i thought i played that hand wrong. i hadn't considered checking on the river. i don't know why i hadn't considered it, but it definitely seems like it would have been the best thing to do. what about the flop and turn? was it right for me to bet then? if i bet the flop and and get called and a high card comes on the turn should i start checking/calling? i seem to get burnt whenever i play low two pair so if you have any other insight on this subject please feel free to post. it doesn't have to be specific to this situation, i'd also like to hear about how to play it against multiple players and raises on the flop. also, i understand that this is also a draw hand to a boat but should i consider the two pair itself to likely be the best hand as long as the board doesn't get to nasty? sorry about the many many questions but this is a hand i seem to get a lot in the BB and it always costs me money; maybe the best thing to do is muck it as soon as the flop hits!!! let me know, thanks. | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, mkpoker, 25. Nov 2003 09:38 | ||
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| You flopped an excellent hand. Bottom-two pair against a rag board is raiseworthy...if not re-raiseworthy heads up. Don't think for a second of letting this go! It's nearly certain your opponent has overcards. What else would he limp with? Maybe an overpair like 88 or 99 (this would be good for you, because he'll think he's got the best hand!) If he had a big pair, he probably would have raised pre-flop. There's a very remote chance he's flopped top set (holding 77), but that's a risk you've got to take. On the flop, your options are to bet out or check-raise (I like betting out). The Q shouldn't scare you on the turn. You should HOPE he holds a Q and just made top pair with something like KQ or QJ. If you bet, he might raise, and then you can re-raise (and he'll probably muck). The river (the 2nd Q) is a huge scare card. Checking the river might have been the right play...I can see both sides. But I'd have made a crying call when raised for the reasons discussed earlier. | ||
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| Re: in BB with 23d, SpaceAce, 25. Nov 2003 20:54 | ||
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| With all that money in the pot against a bad player, I would have called one last bet. The thing is, no one seems to be addressing the fact that all your opponent had to do was beat a pair of 3s. You were probably beat but I think you should have paid him off to see for sure. SpaceAce | ||
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